Re: [WSG] valid flash?
http://blog.deconcept.com/2005/03/31/proper-flash-embedding-flashobject-best-practices/ if your not adverse to using some javascript, no ones be able to prove any draw backs to using this system yet certainly much easier than merthods you re trying!! designer wrote: OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear head! I've been comparing the method of getting valid flash suggested by Simon Jessey with that suggested by Bert Doorn. You can see a simple test page of the two, running side by side, at www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/flash/ What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the only browser I use with plugins blocked). I'm also confused by the fact that the browsercam report shows that, in IE6, the flash plays even when the player is not installed! see: http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=165429 So, my question: Which is 'best' - Jessey or Doorn? And, if one or both of them work without real problems, isn't that a big step forward that we should all know about? What are your feelings/findings? Thanks for any fog-clearing input on this:-) Bob McClelland, Cornwall (U.K.) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] valid flash?
G'day OK, I'm getting a bit confused and I need help from someone with a clear head! I haven't got one of those - it's full of grey matter (some of it sticking out ;-) However... What surprises me is that the non flash content in the Jessey example works when it's not IE you are using (certainly when it's Opera 8, which is the only browser I use with plugins blocked). No surprise really... !--[if !IE] -- To browsers other than IE it's just a one line comment. !-- comment -- I'm also confused by the fact that the browsercam report shows that, in IE6, the flash plays even when the player is not installed! Suggest you take that up with BrowserCam - someone accidentally installed Flash on that machine? In IE with high security settings (to block flash, among other things), I get only ONE flash not installed message. Perhaps IE in high security mode doesn't honour IE conditional comments. Try it with this version, which has two different not installed messages: http://www.bwdzine.com/flash.html If this is true, and all else being equal, the simpler version may be better, as IE users with high security settings still get alternative content. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
for another point of view here's a link tothe Flash gurus at the Flashnewbie list http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/ they're extremely knowledgeable when it comes to Flash ByteDreams - Original Message - From: David McKinnon To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 7:20 PM Subject: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable wayto embed Flash objects yet?I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Cansomeone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at AList Apart.My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invaliddefault method:http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.htmlThis is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With WebStandards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay methodhttp://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithodor Ian Hixie'shttp://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1Anyone know any better?David McKinnonwww.alucida.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledgeTo be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help**
RE: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Sorry Neerav, That works for me in IE6/Win and Safari 1.0.3, but not IE5.2/Mac, Opera 7.5(Win and Mac), Firefox 0.9.3 (Win and Mac) or Camino 0.8. The A List Apart article and Ian Hix's solution both aim at solving problems with the object element. However, I understand from Designing With Web Standards and the discussion of the A List Apart Flash Satay article (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/discuss/) that some browsers IE/Win 5, 5.5 and 6, Konquerer/Linux and Mozilla/Linux sometimes fail to correctly handle the object element. Apparently it works most of the time but sometimes people just get a blank space where the Flash should be. Hixie's solution seems to be the most elegant, although Mark Lynch casts some doubt on this here http://markl.f2o.org/experiments/flashvars/ Any further developments? David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2004 10:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera) object codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.ca b#version=6,0,0,0 type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; width=640 height=480 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / /object -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
David thats a bit bizare because on my computer (Win 2K) it works on: Opera Version 7.52Build 3834 Firefox 0.9 IE 6 SP1 Guess I'll have to go back to the invalid MM method. David McKinnon wrote: Sorry Neerav, That works for me in IE6/Win and Safari 1.0.3, but not IE5.2/Mac, Opera 7.5(Win and Mac), Firefox 0.9.3 (Win and Mac) or Camino 0.8. The A List Apart article and Ian Hix's solution both aim at solving problems with the object element. However, I understand from Designing With Web Standards and the discussion of the A List Apart Flash Satay article (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/discuss/) that some browsers IE/Win 5, 5.5 and 6, Konquerer/Linux and Mozilla/Linux sometimes fail to correctly handle the object element. Apparently it works most of the time but sometimes people just get a blank space where the Flash should be. Hixie's solution seems to be the most elegant, although Mark Lynch casts some doubt on this here http://markl.f2o.org/experiments/flashvars/ Any further developments? David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2004 10:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera) object codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.ca b#version=6,0,0,0 type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; width=640 height=480 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / /object -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Hi I have a feeling that the inconsistencies in valid xhtml markup for embedding (object) Flash were from general badness in the ActiveX used by Flash Player (somebody mentioned a corrupt OCX file on the Flash Satay discussion at ALA) and Internet Explorer having it's own version of the object tag. There are a few links in the archive of this list worth checking out. The version i have at webqs.com works for all the browsers and players I could lay my hands on. Cheers James David McKinnon wrote: Sorry Neerav, That works for me in IE6/Win and Safari 1.0.3, but not IE5.2/Mac, Opera 7.5(Win and Mac), Firefox 0.9.3 (Win and Mac) or Camino 0.8. The A List Apart article and Ian Hix's solution both aim at solving problems with the object element. However, I understand from Designing With Web Standards and the discussion of the A List Apart Flash Satay article (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/discuss/) that some browsers IE/Win 5, 5.5 and 6, Konquerer/Linux and Mozilla/Linux sometimes fail to correctly handle the object element. Apparently it works most of the time but sometimes people just get a blank space where the Flash should be. Hixie's solution seems to be the most elegant, although Mark Lynch casts some doubt on this here http://markl.f2o.org/experiments/flashvars/ Any further developments? David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2004 10:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera) object codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.ca b#version=6,0,0,0 type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; width=640 height=480 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / /object -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Interesting, I posted a query (a Flash forum) about the Flash Satay method not always displaying on Opera. Sometimes it required a page refresh in order to display. I was told that it was a problem with my copy of the browser. Which didn't ring true at the time either. I learnt to live with the effect as they were only single-page fun sites. http://www.2kool2.com/2kool2/ http://www.2kool2.com/senuik/ I'd be very interested in any solutions anyone comes up with. mike 2k:)2 marqueeblink mike foskett /marquee/blink http://www.webSemantics.co.uk [almost complete] -Original Message- From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 18 August 2004 08:57 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play Hi I have a feeling that the inconsistencies in valid xhtml markup for embedding (object) Flash were from general badness in the ActiveX used by Flash Player (somebody mentioned a corrupt OCX file on the Flash Satay discussion at ALA) and Internet Explorer having it's own version of the object tag. There are a few links in the archive of this list worth checking out. The version i have at webqs.com works for all the browsers and players I could lay my hands on. Cheers James David McKinnon wrote: Sorry Neerav, That works for me in IE6/Win and Safari 1.0.3, but not IE5.2/Mac, Opera 7.5(Win and Mac), Firefox 0.9.3 (Win and Mac) or Camino 0.8. The A List Apart article and Ian Hix's solution both aim at solving problems with the object element. However, I understand from Designing With Web Standards and the discussion of the A List Apart Flash Satay article (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/discuss/) that some browsers IE/Win 5, 5.5 and 6, Konquerer/Linux and Mozilla/Linux sometimes fail to correctly handle the object element. Apparently it works most of the time but sometimes people just get a blank space where the Flash should be. Hixie's solution seems to be the most elegant, although Mark Lynch casts some doubt on this here http://markl.f2o.org/experiments/flashvars/ Any further developments? David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neerav Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 2004 10:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera) object codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swfl ash.ca b#version=6,0,0,0 type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; width=640 height=480 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / /object -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Hi Try writing the necessary, but bloated flash code dynamically from a linked JS file as a function. Then call the function within the document. Safe, reliable and valid. C On Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 05:20 PM, David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Respectfully, Chris http://ckimedia.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Try writing the necessary, but bloated flash code dynamically from a linked JS file as a function. Then call the function within the document. Safe, reliable and valid. ...and it doesn't work without JavaScript enabled. Also, in reality that's just tricking the validator and still supplying invalid code to the browser. I'd avoid that method if I were you. Personally, I like the version using IE conditional comments. It does require some repetition but its solid. Far from perfect though I have to say. I've done a load of experimentation on this subject and as yet have got nowhere. It really is a massive pain in the a*se... Im not sure of the link to the article explaining the conditional IE comments and haven't got time to root it out at the moment but Im sure one of friendly list dudes will know it... Cheers, -- Dan Webb Web Developer and Internet Consultant www.danwebb.net 07957 234544 39 Roseberry Gardens, London, N8 8SH ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
Hi, This is for embedding quicktime, but it may put you on to something. http://realdev1.realise.com/rossa/rendertest/quicktime.html And flash doesn't work with plug-in's and this doesn't work, without that.. Six in one hand half-dozen in the other. The aforementioned method may be slight of hand, but I've yet to encounter a situation where it has failed. Several large FLASH/XHTML/CSS firms use this method, so until I can find a concrete solution, I'll have to go with it. Thanks for your insight, it did inspire me to keep looking for a more tangible solution. W On Wednesday, August 18, 2004, at 07:47 AM, Dan Webb wrote: Try writing the necessary, but bloated flash code dynamically from a linked JS file as a function. Then call the function within the document. Safe, reliable and valid. ...and it doesn't work without JavaScript enabled. Also, in reality that's just tricking the validator and still supplying invalid code to the browser. I'd avoid that method if I were you. Personally, I like the version using IE conditional comments. It does require some repetition but its solid. Far from perfect though I have to say. I've done a load of experimentation on this subject and as yet have got nowhere. It really is a massive pain in the a*se... Im not sure of the link to the article explaining the conditional IE comments and haven't got time to root it out at the moment but Im sure one of friendly list dudes will know it... Cheers, -- Dan Webb Web Developer and Internet Consultant www.danwebb.net 07957 234544 39 Roseberry Gardens, London, N8 8SH ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Respectfully, Chris http://ckimedia.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash state of play
The following is valid XHTML transitional, and seems to work fine in the browsers I've checked (IE6, Mozilla, Opera) object codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,0,0; type=application/x-shockwave-flash data=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; width=640 height=480 param name=movie value=http://www.example.com/flash.swf; / /object -- Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy Mobile: +61 (0)403 8000 27 http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav David McKinnon wrote: Does anyone know if anyone has managed to produce a valid and reliable way to embed Flash objects yet? I'm noting Nick Gleitzman's reply to Seona Bellamy yesterday [RE: [WSG] Can someone reproduce these issues for me please?] suggesting Flash Satay at A List Apart. My understanding is that the safest way is still to use Macromedia's invalid default method: http://www.macromedia.com/support/flash/ts/documents/tn4150.html This is taking into account Jeffrey Zeldman's comments in Designing With Web Standards about Drew McLellan's Flash Satay method http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ And noting Mark Lynch's comments on Flashvars using either the Satay meithod or Ian Hixie's http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1081798064count=1 Anyone know any better? David McKinnon www.alucida.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Valid Flash...
Could anybody confirm if this new method solves the non-streaming problem of the Flash Satay method ? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay Cheers, P Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Chris Bentley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 April 2004 10:07 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Valid Flash... The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed Macromedia Flash files using only the OBJECT tag... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html Cheers, chris. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
Hi Looking at the code (from source URL below) object classid=clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354 codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0; width=300 height=120 param name=movie value=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/flash.swf; param name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF !--[if !IE] -- object data=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/flash.swf; width=300 height=120 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF param name=pluginurl value=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer; FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this). /object !-- [endif]-- /object It's evident there are two tags running - one for ActiveX browsers (i.e IE on Win32) devices and the other for every other browser. The idea behind removing the embed tag (a proprietary Netscape tag for NS4 and under) was to have only 1 tag set for every user agent. Drew Mclellan's Flash Satay on A List Apart does this to good effect.. In the code above we have the ActiveX clsid for IE, the other version has the W3C recommended way to do it - this seems to be the sticking point for certain versions of IE5.x that will display a textarea instead of your object. I did some work on this when I was looking at really pushing Flash for some work I was doing and wanted to adhere to the standards. I couldn't actually reproduce this bug - Russ told me once that he and Rose didn't reproduce it either in their testing (my testing was on IE5.5 on Win ME (the platform from hell). This implementation doesn't really solve the tag soup problem - it uses propietrary IE conditionals instead of proprietary Netscape tags does IE for other versions of Windows (devices for instance) ignore the conditionals and attempt to display two objects? Something that IE handles really well ;D As for the streaming of Flash, modularising the movie is the solution to this and probably should be implemented on every Flash app, instead of having one movie do everything. It seems to be a layover from the bad old days of loading 600kbthats a topic for another list , tho', but it's really easy to do and helps out with app updates, scalability no end. HTH James Chris Bentley wrote: The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed Macromedia Flash files using only the OBJECT tag... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html Cheers, chris. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
For some things the lack of streaming can be very restrictive as there are several things you cannot do with a loaded movie. Sure modularising the movie is a good plan, but there are times that you need access to that root level of the movie. What I don't understand is why someone would bother... to me flash is not a W3C standard, thus it will not validate... but maybe that is just me. If you read hixie's page you will see that he is pretty anti flash anyways so I doubt he has thoroughly tested this, so it could through up unforseen problems (or maybe not, but we don't know, see unforseen above) As for the streaming of Flash, modularising the movie is the solution to this and probably should be implemented on every Flash app, instead of having one movie do everything. It seems to be a layover from the bad old days of loading 600kbthats a topic for another list , tho', but it's really easy to do and helps out with app updates, scalability no end. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
I am not a big fan of Macromedia Flash. To me, it will always be a proprietary format with an accessibility problem, despite Macromedia's efforts to promote otherwise; however, it cannot be discounted as a web medium. Until SVG becomes more widely accepted, Flash is King. I chose not to use it for personal work, but I will happily use it if a client requests it. Thus far, I have been forced to use the Satay method to include it in my work. Ian Hickson's solution appears to be sound. Anne van Kesteren rightly points out that it creates more markup, and has to resort to conditional comments, but it does represent a simpler solution to that proposed by A List Apart's twice-cooked method. I will probably use this method, until a better one presents itself. Simon Jessey -- mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web : http://jessey.net/blog/ work: http://keystonewebsites.com/ - Original Message - From: scott parsons [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Valid Flash... What I don't understand is why someone would bother... to me flash is not a W3C standard, thus it will not validate... but maybe that is just me. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
James Following this tread, reading the satay article, and looking up the XHTML 1.0 spec for the object tag, it seems to me, that I could put all this code inside an external CSS. My questions are [1] am I right? [2] would keeping the flash code out of the HTML using id's on the object element allow strict validation, since all major browsers do somewhat support object? [3] or just use Drew Mclellan's solution? Also I ask the same confirmation question as P. Leo On Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 07:43 AM, James Ellis wrote: Hi Looking at the code (from source URL below) object classid=clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354 codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/ swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0 width=300 height=120 param name=movie value=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/ triggerpages_mmcom/flash.swfparam name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF !--[if !IE] -- object data=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/ flash.swf width=300 height=120 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF param name=pluginurl value=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer; FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this). /object !-- [endif]-- /object It's evident there are two tags running - one for ActiveX browsers (i.e IE on Win32) devices and the other for every other browser. The idea behind removing the embed tag (a proprietary Netscape tag for NS4 and under) was to have only 1 tag set for every user agent. Drew Mclellan's Flash Satay on A List Apart does this to good effect.. In the code above we have the ActiveX clsid for IE, the other version has the W3C recommended way to do it - this seems to be the sticking point for certain versions of IE5.x that will display a textarea instead of your object. I did some work on this when I was looking at really pushing Flash for some work I was doing and wanted to adhere to the standards. I couldn't actually reproduce this bug - Russ told me once that he and Rose didn't reproduce it either in their testing (my testing was on IE5.5 on Win ME (the platform from hell). This implementation doesn't really solve the tag soup problem - it uses propietrary IE conditionals instead of proprietary Netscape tags does IE for other versions of Windows (devices for instance) ignore the conditionals and attempt to display two objects? Something that IE handles really well ;D As for the streaming of Flash, modularising the movie is the solution to this and probably should be implemented on every Flash app, instead of having one movie do everything. It seems to be a layover from the bad old days of loading 600kbthats a topic for another list , tho', but it's really easy to do and helps out with app updates, scalability no end. HTH James Chris Bentley wrote: The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed Macromedia Flash files using only the OBJECT tag... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html Cheers, chris. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
scott parsons wrote: For some things the lack of streaming can be very restrictive as there are several things you cannot do with a loaded movie. Sure modularising the movie is a good plan, but there are times that you need access to that root level of the movie. Not that this is a Flash list but you can access the _root of the movie from anywhere in the movie, including loaded movies. What I don't understand is why someone would bother... to me flash is not a W3C standard, thus it will not validate... but maybe that is just me. This is separate to the markup used to load a Flash movie... sure Flash is propietary, so is the embed tag, Quicktime, Real, and lots of other media that use the object tag (Gif is proprietary as well and it can be rendered by an object tag) Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Valid Flash...
Leo There are a few things happening here: * The object tag is HTML so you'd need to leave quite a few attributes in the tag structure. A few of the presentational elements could go in a stylesheet (like bgcolor, width and height), I believe. * IE for Win completely barfs when multiple object tags are presented. The ideas behind nesting object tags is to present a cascading media.. those who can't render application/x-shockwave-flash could render an object containing a PNG. If they don't do either then plain text can be nested in the object tag holding the PNG. This is apparently the XHTML2.0 way of rendering media, as IMG will be deprecated - but not for a long while yet :D - so we may see a change in IE to compensate for this in the far future. The reason the standard object/embed tag structure doesn't validate is that embed is a Netscape tag. Using one object tag for all browsers allows validation and the run offs from that. Just like the object/embed method, this one is a hack to get validation across multiple browsers -- much better to work on the single tag method. Leo J. O'Campo wrote: James Following this tread, reading the satay article, and looking up the XHTML 1.0 spec for the object tag, it seems to me, that I could put all this code inside an external CSS. My questions are [1] am I right? [2] would keeping the flash code out of the HTML using id's on the object element allow strict validation, since all major browsers do somewhat support object? [3] or just use Drew Mclellan's solution? Also I ask the same confirmation question as P. Leo On Tuesday, April 13, 2004, at 07:43 AM, James Ellis wrote: Hi Looking at the code (from source URL below) object classid=clsid:D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-44455354 codebase=http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/ swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0 width=300 height=120 param name=movie value=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/ triggerpages_mmcom/flash.swfparam name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF !--[if !IE] -- object data=http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/triggerpages_mmcom/ flash.swf width=300 height=120 type=application/x-shockwave-flash param name=quality value=high param name=bgcolor value=#FF param name=pluginurl value=http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer; FAIL (the browser should render some flash content, not this). /object !-- [endif]-- /object It's evident there are two tags running - one for ActiveX browsers (i.e IE on Win32) devices and the other for every other browser. The idea behind removing the embed tag (a proprietary Netscape tag for NS4 and under) was to have only 1 tag set for every user agent. Drew Mclellan's Flash Satay on A List Apart does this to good effect.. In the code above we have the ActiveX clsid for IE, the other version has the W3C recommended way to do it - this seems to be the sticking point for certain versions of IE5.x that will display a textarea instead of your object. I did some work on this when I was looking at really pushing Flash for some work I was doing and wanted to adhere to the standards. I couldn't actually reproduce this bug - Russ told me once that he and Rose didn't reproduce it either in their testing (my testing was on IE5.5 on Win ME (the platform from hell). This implementation doesn't really solve the tag soup problem - it uses propietrary IE conditionals instead of proprietary Netscape tags does IE for other versions of Windows (devices for instance) ignore the conditionals and attempt to display two objects? Something that IE handles really well ;D As for the streaming of Flash, modularising the movie is the solution to this and probably should be implemented on every Flash app, instead of having one movie do everything. It seems to be a layover from the bad old days of loading 600kbthats a topic for another list , tho', but it's really easy to do and helps out with app updates, scalability no end. HTH James Chris Bentley wrote: The imitable Ian Hickson has some valid HTML to embed Macromedia Flash files using only the OBJECT tag... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-validator/2004Apr/0071.html Cheers, chris. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
