RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi, Came across this link: http://www.enablepdf.com/ which might also be useful in making accessible PDF documents. I haven't looked into costs etc, just happened across the site while browsing through The Register. Kind regards, Elaine http://www.webdandy.co.uk http://www.webdandy-access.com -Original Message- From: Web Dandy Design [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 09 May 2007 11:27 To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi, A couple of links that maybe useful: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pdf_accessibility http://www.planetpdf.com/search_results.asp?words=accessibility&SearchString =storepdftoolsforumgeneral Another option maybe to convert the PDF content to HTML: http://tinyurl.com/2fema Kind regards, Elaine http://www.webdandy.co.uk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: 09 May 2007 10:30 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > how do you make the pdf accessible??? > > I guess it probably depends if it has unencrypted text in it... some pdf's might only contain images or other stuff... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Yes, I think you will find if you look into it you will find that having no JavaScript does not equate to no screen reader. Depending on the the way you use the DOM and the the way you script obtrusive or unobtrusive (I hope the latter) and the object type there are documented instances where Screen readers cope with JavaScript just fine. Screen Readers are not JavaScript blind. However there are instances when it can lead to confusion. Also using a unobtrusive hijax method of JavaScript does not equal the old horror story popups. JavaScript can be used for good. The real under lying question here is the document flow. Usually a PDF or other media type document is seen as a take-away from the web and hence as an adjunct to the sites main document flow. Or when you get to the document that is a PDF its often the end of that information Branch. Often people may like to launch this in a separate window so they preserve the site document flow on screen with the navigation etc. The question (and this topic is constantly reoccurring) is do you let the viewer use the browser controls to launch a new tab or window or do you the designer decide to open it in a new window for them Gary Barber radharc radharc.com.au manwithnoblog.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't make up my mind whether you are agreeing with me here or disagreeing? The important point is that this type of script assumes that no JavaScript == screen reader which is patent nonsense. It also assumes that screen reader users are the only ones who might dislike pop-ups, which is even more ridiculous. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:35 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question The script can do much more than just adding the event. It can add a title attribute, plug an icon or even add some text within the anchor tags. That way the info about the behavior is plugged only if the behavior is available. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Thierry Koblentz wrote: > The script can do much more than just adding the event. It can add a > title attribute, plug an icon or even add some text within the anchor > tags. That way the info about the behavior is plugged only if the > behavior is available. Frank Palinkas wrote: > You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript in > Jeremy Keith's book [...] and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book [...] While I personally agree with Michael that such scripting is not really something to be encouraged, nor something that can be done in a way that really meets accessibility standards 100%, I would point to the following test site by Bill Posters as the closest I've seen to a "best practices" method of doing this: http://test.newplasticarts.co.uk/dom-js/flag-offsite-links/ No need to buy anyone's book to get caught up on the latest methods! Phil. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
I can't make up my mind whether you are agreeing with me here or disagreeing? The important point is that this type of script assumes that no JavaScript == screen reader which is patent nonsense. It also assumes that screen reader users are the only ones who might dislike pop-ups, which is even more ridiculous. Regards, Mike > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:35 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > > The script can do much more than just adding the event. It > can add a title > attribute, plug an icon or even add some text within the anchor tags. > That way the info about the behavior is plugged only if the > behavior is > available. > > --- > Regards, > Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Perhaps I did not make myself clear - what every script of this nature does is remove the need for an 'inline' onClick event handler, by programmatically inserting the exact same handler after the document has loaded, by searching for some attribute of the link. While this does a good job of fooling a dumb validator, which can only work on the raw source code, it does nothing for the overall accessibility of the document - quite the reverse; neither the user nor the author can accurately predict whether a link will be opened in a new window or in the current window. The script can do much more than just adding the event. It can add a title attribute, plug an icon or even add some text within the anchor tags. That way the info about the behavior is plugged only if the behavior is available. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Perhaps I did not make myself clear - what every script of this nature does is remove the need for an 'inline' onClick event handler, by programmatically inserting the exact same handler after the document has loaded, by searching for some attribute of the link. While this does a good job of fooling a dumb validator, which can only work on the raw source code, it does nothing for the overall accessibility of the document - quite the reverse; neither the user nor the author can accurately predict whether a link will be opened in a new window or in the current window. Mike > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:27 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > Hi Mike, > > I think there is a misunderstanding here. Removing the > onclick event handler > from the markup is all that is being done, thereby the > unobtrusive value of > the exercise. The DOM/JavaScript does not "insert" any links. The link > remains intact within the markup as it should be. It merely > uses the rel > attribute of the element as a trigger to launch the > new window, as > would the onclick event handler attribute if it was placed > within the > element. > > Frank *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
There's no single approach to PDF accessibility. It depends on many factors such as the number, size, content, resources (all options are expensive but some are more expensive than others) and the level of accessibility you are aiming for. For instance an untagged PDF may be accessible to screen readers as long as the content is predominantly text and the default reading order is correct, and it may be accessible to most other users as long as you can change the size and colour of the text and background etc, which is a native Adobe Reader feature. However, such a PDF lacks any semantic structure so it may well be inaccessible to software that wants to programmatically access the content in an intelligent manner e.g. news aggregators. I am a member of Equal Internet (www.equalinternet.co.uk), a recently-formed UK-based group of accessibility professionals, and we are starting to document a methodology that will deal with all the various scenarios. A couple of guys from Riverdocs (http://www.riverdocs.com/) have joined and bring a wealth of expertise in this area. I have not used their product yet but will be evaluating it in the near future. Gary is right about the source platform. PDFs generated from Word can be merely painful to make accessible (that's as good as it gets). PDFs generated from graphical tools like Quark are horrendous beyond words. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gary Barber Sent: 10 May 2007 09:26 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Platforms aside. Given Steve's comments (thanks Steve) has anyone documented what does work and what doesn't and a clear way around this problem of PDF accessibility. I suspect a lot has to do with the rendering source platform from my meager testing. Converting it to HTML is not always practical given the business based cost considerations for say 1000, 200 page documents. Gary Barber radharc radharc.com.au manwithnoblog.com Steve Green wrote: > That document makes it sound so easy but there's s much it doesn't > mention. We do heaps of accessible PDFs and have the scars to prove > it. The manuals are incomplete, inaccurate and Acrobat Pro is very > broken. Version 8 is so bad we uninstalled it and went back to version > 7 because at least we know how to work around most of the bugs. > > > > Steve > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Webb, KerryA > Sent: 10 May 2007 00:08 > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > Jermayn asked: > >> and Kerry, how do you make the pdf accessible??? >> >> > > There are some pointers here > http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/pdfs/CreateAccessibleAdvanced.pd > f > > Kerry > (noting the accessibility is relative, not absolute - so probably I > should have said "more accessible") > > -- > - This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the > sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any > attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any > purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. > -- > - > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi Mike, I think there is a misunderstanding here. Removing the onclick event handler from the markup is all that is being done, thereby the unobtrusive value of the exercise. The DOM/JavaScript does not "insert" any links. The link remains intact within the markup as it should be. It merely uses the rel attribute of the element as a trigger to launch the new window, as would the onclick event handler attribute if it was placed within the element. Frank -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 15:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Unfortunately, using JavaScript to insert such links is no more than a fudge - you cannot rely on JavaScript being turned off in a screen-reader users browser, and this cannot be regarded as 'unobtrusive', or even 'progressive enhancement' as it is a fundamental change in behaviour. Mike > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:35 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive > DOM/JavaScript to > replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with > a rel attribute > in the element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, > the page will > open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new > window. Also, an > assistive device may read the element's title > attribute (if employed) > to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. > > You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive > DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy > Keith's book, "DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and > the Document > Object Model", and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book "The > JavaScript > Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks". You can check Amazon > for reviews, > etc. on them. > > Hope this helps, > > Kind regards, > > Frank M. Palinkas > Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help > W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert > M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ > Senior Technical Communicator > Web Standards & Accessibility Designer > > website: http://frank.helpware.net > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Member: > Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) > Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) > Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) > > Supergroup Trading Ltd. > Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa > website: http://www.supergroup.co.za > > Work: +27 011 523 4931 > Home: +27 011 455 5287 > Fax: +27 011 455 3112 > Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 > -------------------- > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > > I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards > intact, without > opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to > open pages in new > window. > > suggestions ? > > regards > -P > > Original Message: > - > From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > > Hi, > You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... >click > here > > Thanks > > On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi group, > > This may only relate to Western Australian people but > someone else may > > know... > > > > I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know > > whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont > really care > > about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet > guidlines > > are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot > find anything. > > > > Thanks for you rhelp > > Jermayn > > > > > > > ** > ** > > > The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance > Commission of > > Weste
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Unfortunately, using JavaScript to insert such links is no more than a fudge - you cannot rely on JavaScript being turned off in a screen-reader users browser, and this cannot be regarded as 'unobtrusive', or even 'progressive enhancement' as it is a fundamental change in behaviour. Mike > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:35 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive > DOM/JavaScript to > replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with > a rel attribute > in the element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, > the page will > open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new > window. Also, an > assistive device may read the element's title > attribute (if employed) > to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. > > You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive > DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy > Keith's book, "DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and > the Document > Object Model", and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book "The > JavaScript > Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks". You can check Amazon > for reviews, > etc. on them. > > Hope this helps, > > Kind regards, > > Frank M. Palinkas > Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help > W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert > M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ > Senior Technical Communicator > Web Standards & Accessibility Designer > > website: http://frank.helpware.net > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Member: > Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) > Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) > Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) > > Supergroup Trading Ltd. > Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa > website: http://www.supergroup.co.za > > Work: +27 011 523 4931 > Home: +27 011 455 5287 > Fax: +27 011 455 3112 > Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 > -------------------- > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > > I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards > intact, without > opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to > open pages in new > window. > > suggestions ? > > regards > -P > > Original Message: > - > From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > > > Hi, > You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... >click > here > > Thanks > > On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Hi group, > > This may only relate to Western Australian people but > someone else may > > know... > > > > I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know > > whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont > really care > > about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet > guidlines > > are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot > find anything. > > > > Thanks for you rhelp > > Jermayn > > > > > > > ** > ** > > > The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance > Commission of > > Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound > > transmission. > > > > This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and > > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified > > that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email > > (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email > > (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. > > > > Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au > > Phone: +61 08 9264 > > > > > > > ** >
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with a rel attribute in the element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, the page will open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new window. Also, an assistive device may read the element's title attribute (if employed) to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy Keith's book, "DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and the Document Object Model", and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book "The JavaScript Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks". You can check Amazon for reviews, etc. on them. Hope this helps, Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+ Senior Technical Communicator Web Standards & Accessibility Designer website: http://frank.helpware.net email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member: Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.) Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website: http://www.supergroup.co.za Work: +27 011 523 4931 Home: +27 011 455 5287 Fax: +27 011 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards intact, without opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to open pages in new window. suggestions ? regards -P Original Message: - From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi, You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... click here Thanks On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi group, > This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may > know... > > I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know > whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care > about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines > are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. > > Thanks for you rhelp > Jermayn > > > > The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of > Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound > transmission. > > This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email > (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email > (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. > > Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au > Phone: +61 08 9264 > > > * > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** mail2web LIVE - Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards intact, without opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to open pages in new window. suggestions ? regards -P Original Message: - From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi, You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... click here Thanks On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi group, > This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may > know... > > I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know > whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care > about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines > are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. > > Thanks for you rhelp > Jermayn > > > > The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of > Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound > transmission. > > This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and > privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email > (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email > (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. > > Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au > Phone: +61 08 9264 > > > * > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi, You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ... click here Thanks On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Platforms aside. Given Steve's comments (thanks Steve) has anyone documented what does work and what doesn't and a clear way around this problem of PDF accessibility. I suspect a lot has to do with the rendering source platform from my meager testing. Converting it to HTML is not always practical given the business based cost considerations for say 1000, 200 page documents. Gary Barber radharc radharc.com.au manwithnoblog.com Steve Green wrote: That document makes it sound so easy but there's s much it doesn't mention. We do heaps of accessible PDFs and have the scars to prove it. The manuals are incomplete, inaccurate and Acrobat Pro is very broken. Version 8 is so bad we uninstalled it and went back to version 7 because at least we know how to work around most of the bugs. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Webb, KerryA Sent: 10 May 2007 00:08 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Jermayn asked: and Kerry, how do you make the pdf accessible??? There are some pointers here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/pdfs/CreateAccessibleAdvanced.pdf Kerry (noting the accessibility is relative, not absolute - so probably I should have said "more accessible") --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
That document makes it sound so easy but there's s much it doesn't mention. We do heaps of accessible PDFs and have the scars to prove it. The manuals are incomplete, inaccurate and Acrobat Pro is very broken. Version 8 is so bad we uninstalled it and went back to version 7 because at least we know how to work around most of the bugs. My advice is don't even think about trying unless there's no alternative, in which case you should seriously consider getting a new job or delegate it to someone who won't be missed when they become a total basket case. As for automated PDF tagging solutions, nothing we have seen is even remotely competent, and nor are any of the PDF to HTML converters we've seen. It is possible for PDFs to be highly accessible to screen readers without being tagged at all, but that very much depends on the size, content and the way in which they were authored. I don't consider Word documents to be an accessible alternative either. It's got to be text or HTML, or RTF at a pinch. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Webb, KerryA Sent: 10 May 2007 00:08 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Jermayn asked: > > and Kerry, how do you make the pdf accessible??? > There are some pointers here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/pdfs/CreateAccessibleAdvanced.pdf Kerry (noting the accessibility is relative, not absolute - so probably I should have said "more accessible") --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Jermayn asked: > > and Kerry, how do you make the pdf accessible??? > There are some pointers here http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/pdfs/CreateAccessibleAdvanced.pdf Kerry (noting the accessibility is relative, not absolute - so probably I should have said "more accessible") --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi, A couple of links that maybe useful: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/pdf_accessibility http://www.planetpdf.com/search_results.asp?words=accessibility&SearchString =storepdftoolsforumgeneral Another option maybe to convert the PDF content to HTML: http://tinyurl.com/2fema Kind regards, Elaine http://www.webdandy.co.uk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael MD Sent: 09 May 2007 10:30 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question > how do you make the pdf accessible??? > > I guess it probably depends if it has unencrypted text in it... some pdf's might only contain images or other stuff... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
how do you make the pdf accessible??? I guess it probably depends if it has unencrypted text in it... some pdf's might only contain images or other stuff... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
and Kerry, how do you make the pdf accessible??? >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/05/2007 12:50:25 pm >>> Nick wrote: > I would disagree. I believe the pdf and word issue dates back to 1999 or so, when you needed to upgrade to the latest and greatest of JAWS at considerable cost to fully access pdfs. Things have changed in 8 years. Now you can access pdfs with almost any screenreader (that is less than 8 years old) and a free version of acrobat. For word documents you also need software to open it and the most common, word costs. > While this is generally true, you need to remember that the creator of a PDF should do a few simple things to make it accessible. Most don't. Kerry -- Kerry Webb Policy Office InTACT x70239 --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security requirements for inbound transmission. ** The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Nick wrote: > I would disagree. I believe the pdf and word issue dates back to 1999 or so, when you needed to upgrade to the latest and greatest of JAWS at considerable cost to fully access pdfs. Things have changed in 8 years. Now you can access pdfs with almost any screenreader (that is less than 8 years old) and a free version of acrobat. For word documents you also need software to open it and the most common, word costs. > While this is generally true, you need to remember that the creator of a PDF should do a few simple things to make it accessible. Most don't. Kerry -- Kerry Webb Policy Office InTACT x70239 --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Jermayn You might want to consider posting the question to the WA Online Services Interest Group http://www.dpc.wa.gov.au/psmd/osig/osig.html It is a very low traffic mailing list for WA public sector. A number of the people involved in the development of the guidelines are on that list. The State Government Web Site Guidelines do not mention opening links or documents in new windows. If I remember correctly it was discussed by the working group on version 2 of the guidelines and because there where two quite different opposing views, it was left out of the guidelines. You need to check section 3.12 which covers content in pdf, word and other non HTML formats. You wrote: I found a reference about html and pdf copies as pdf is not accessible (word is) I would disagree. I believe the pdf and word issue dates back to 1999 or so, when you needed to upgrade to the latest and greatest of JAWS at considerable cost to fully access pdfs. Things have changed in 8 years. Now you can access pdfs with almost any screenreader (that is less than 8 years old) and a free version of acrobat. For word documents you also need software to open it and the most common, word costs. -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Tamara, I never look to AGIMO except to see what they are mucking up. A review of their Finance and Gov pages These AGIMO pages are a bit ordinary for accessibility. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html#agmio I never look to AGIMO, except to wonder what low standards they are now promoting! They stated to me when I pointed out Centrelink homepage errors, "We lead by example" Special Minister responsible for AGIMO, Gary Nair also states that: "Australia leads the world in e-governance". But I proved they are not. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/Results.html On average UK sites had fewer validation errors and more accessibility features. AGIMO do not lead by example, see a review of the AGIMO 2006 awards for excellence. http://www.hereticpress.com/Dogstar/Publishing/AustWeb.html#roadready Tim On 09/05/2007, at 1:24 PM, Tamara Jackson wrote: Hi Jermayn When in doubt, look to AGIMO and what they recommend. Mostly, they recommend us looking at W3C, and our obligation there is to fulfil at least the level one priorities. W3C tells us to avoid opening new windows as far as is possible (can't remember which priority level that is!). However, you'll find that many users still close the entire browser window in an attempt to close a PDF, so it may be better to open it in a new window. To some extent, this decision is more up to each individual department, and I've seen both practices implemented. Does your department have specific guidelines? Tamara :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn *** * The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 *** * * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Why not let the user decide if they want a new window or not? It is generally a bad idea for accessibility. National Australian standards also cover WA, HREOC standards which follow WCAG Guidelines. http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/#wc-priority-1 Guideline 10. Use interim solutions recommends not opening new windows. I think it also might limit your doctype to transitoional, in Quirks mode it may be less reliable in rendering some pages in some browsers. http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html They should care about Australian laws requiring compliance with at minimum WCAG 1.0 Checklists. Tim On 09/05/2007, at 1:08 PM, Michael MD wrote: I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. no idea about "state guidelines" ... but I hope the page warns people that they are pdf's before they click! One of my pet hates is acrobat reader opening in a browser unexpectedly. It takes a long time to start and the browser is completely locked up while it waits for acrobat reader to start. (acrobat reader had the same problem a decade ago and they never fixed it!) Its especially annoying when looking at government sites - they seem to use pdf for almost everything (including a lot of stuff that could have just been put there as html) If it's a pdf I prefer to just download it and open it in acrobat reader without using the browser - much less hassle and I can still browse while waiting for acrobat reader to start! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Karl and mdagn yes we do have some publications that are currently in html format and going through the state guidlines I found a reference about html and pdf copies as pdf is not accessible (word is), so im think we may just do that even though the five odd publications are 60 plus pages each... >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/05/2007 11:14:36 am >>> Jermayn, I think that it really depends on the end user. I know that any .pdf I open within my copy of Firefox or Safari will always open up a separate instance of Acrobat Reader or OSX Preview.app anyway (= new window). It might have something to do with how Acrobat Reader is installed by the end user, i.e Either as a plugin or standalone app. As a side question, why use PDF? As a governmental body (assumption made by examining your email address), why are you putting your public information into a proprietary format that requires a proprietary reader to read? Can someone tell me how accessible PDF documents are to people with special needs? I'm assuming that it's not hopeless with the likes of the accessibility features within Windows and OSX, or am I wrong? Karl The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Hi Jermayn When in doubt, look to AGIMO and what they recommend. Mostly, they recommend us looking at W3C, and our obligation there is to fulfil at least the level one priorities. W3C tells us to avoid opening new windows as far as is possible (can't remember which priority level that is!). However, you'll find that many users still close the entire browser window in an attempt to close a PDF, so it may be better to open it in a new window. To some extent, this decision is more up to each individual department, and I've seen both practices implemented. Does your department have specific guidelines? Tamara :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jermayn Parker Sent: Wednesday, 9 May 2007 12:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] wa state guidlines question Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
Jermayn, I think that it really depends on the end user. I know that any .pdf I open within my copy of Firefox or Safari will always open up a separate instance of Acrobat Reader or OSX Preview.app anyway (= new window). It might have something to do with how Acrobat Reader is installed by the end user, i.e Either as a plugin or standalone app. As a side question, why use PDF? As a governmental body (assumption made by examining your email address), why are you putting your public information into a proprietary format that requires a proprietary reader to read? Can someone tell me how accessible PDF documents are to people with special needs? I'm assuming that it's not hopeless with the likes of the accessibility features within Windows and OSX, or am I wrong? Karl On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi group, This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else may know... I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. Thanks for you rhelp Jermayn The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound transmission. This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission. Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au Phone: +61 08 9264 * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything. no idea about "state guidelines" ... but I hope the page warns people that they are pdf's before they click! One of my pet hates is acrobat reader opening in a browser unexpectedly. It takes a long time to start and the browser is completely locked up while it waits for acrobat reader to start. (acrobat reader had the same problem a decade ago and they never fixed it!) Its especially annoying when looking at government sites - they seem to use pdf for almost everything (including a lot of stuff that could have just been put there as html) If it's a pdf I prefer to just download it and open it in acrobat reader without using the browser - much less hassle and I can still browse while waiting for acrobat reader to start! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
