Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 10/05/07, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The problem is that the abbr is poorly supported by IE5 and IE6. This
means you may have to (1) revert to using the acronym element, or (2)
place a span inside your abbr element and style this instead or (3) use
JavaScript:
http://annevankesteren.nl/2003/08/improved-styling-abbr-in-ie
Does anyone else here use Dean Edwards' technique?
http://dean.edwards.name/my/abbr-cadabra.html
Basically the premise is like so:
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
html xmlns:html=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml;
head
...
style type=text/css
html\:abbr, abbr {
border-bottom:1px dashed #000;
cursor: help;
}
/style
/head
body
!-- prefix the abbr/ tag with the html namespace prefix --
pFor example: This is an html:abbr
title=abbreviationabbr/html:abbr./p
...
/body
/html
Although it's valid, the validator throws up an error. As far as
accessibility goes, I'm not certain how it would be dealt with by
screen readers.
I'd be interested to know if there are any problems with the method
that I've overlooked besides the validation error (which is apparently
incorrect anyhow).
Cheers,
Sarah
--
Sarah Isaacson
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/velvetsarah
Weblog: http://www.velvet.id.au
Not a work of art or a showcase of my design skills, just a place for
me to put my thoughts and get on my soapbox sometimes!
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On Fri, 11 May 2007 09:54:47 -0600, Dan Dorman wrote: On 5/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OED seems pretty clear on the issue: abbreviation, noun: a shortened form of a word or phrase http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/abbreviation acronym, noun: a word formed from the initial letters of other words (e.g. laser, Aids) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/acronym initialism, noun: an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g. BBC) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/initialism Fantastic! This is exactly the sort of reference I was looking for--but I was unable to find a version of the OED through which I could search. If the OED says it, I'll buy it. Thanks, Nick! But be aware that common U.S. practice employs acronym for initialisms[1]. I must agree with the Yanks that inititalism does not roll easily off the tongue! [1] http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionaryva=acronym Cordially, David -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 12 May 2007, at 18:11:51, David Hucklesby wrote: If the OED says it, I'll buy it. Thanks, Nick! But be aware that common U.S. practice employs acronym for initialisms[1]. I must agree with the Yanks that inititalism does not roll easily off the tongue! [1] http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionaryva=acronym Cordially, David Well, that's what happens when people don't follow the standard :-) -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 11 May 2007, at 10:55:14, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Of course I cannot effectively support this by looking it up on the web because the lines on this have been blurred significantly over time so the dictionaries are of little help. The OED seems pretty clear on the issue: abbreviation, noun: a shortened form of a word or phrase http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/abbreviation acronym, noun: a word formed from the initial letters of other words (e.g. laser, Aids) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/acronym initialism, noun: an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g. BBC) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/initialism Note that, according to these definitions, an acronym is not considered to be an abbreviation at all - it is considered to be a word in its own right, which justifies the existence of the two separate tags. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 11 May 2007, at 09:56:54, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but what a screen reader _should_ do is to _read_ an acronym and to _spell out_ an abreviation. Even if that is not yet the case, it seems likely in the future, assuming that we all use the correct elements in the first place... Regards, Mike PS 'Initialism' isn't a tag - with good reason; it isn't even a proper english word! I don't see that this should be the case. For example, Ltd is a common UK abbreviation for the word Limited in the context of a Limited Liability Company, such as HyperGlobalMegaCorp Ltd. Another example would be Mr, which is an abbreviation of Mister. There are plenty more examples - in French, Mlle is an abbreviation of Mademoiselle. None of those should be spelled out, yet they are all abbreviations. Oh, and initialism is in the Oxford English Dictionary, which is generally regarded as the canonical source: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/initialism Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Michael Brockington wrote: I'm not 100% sure this is the case, but what a screen reader _should_ do is to _read_ an acronym and to _spell out_ an abreviation. Even if that is not yet the case, it seems likely in the future, assuming that we all use the correct elements in the first place... That is my thinking on the matter too. If it is meant to be spoken (RADAR), it is the acronym-type of abbreviation. It is known that an acronym is a special type of abbreviation and in my mind this is determined by how it is handled by the reader. This is my rule-of-thumb when I'm deciding which is more proper to use in a given instance. I like having this as my rule-of-thumb because it takes the individual instance brainwork out of it. In other words I can have a consistent practice to rely on. As abbreviations go, provided this thinking is correct, the acronym is somewhat uncommon. We wouldn't see it very often I suspect if IE supported abbr. If IE offered the proper support, I suspect there would be a far greater number of proper instances on the web since I feel most people use acronym for the styling and IE support. Of course I cannot effectively support this by looking it up on the web because the lines on this have been blurred significantly over time so the dictionaries are of little help. I *think* I originally read this rule in the book, The Elements of Style (which is sort of a universally-accepted writer's rule book). Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 11 May 2007, at 13:10:28, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see that this should be the case. For example, Ltd is a common UK abbreviation for the word Limited in the context of a Limited Liability Company, such as HyperGlobalMegaCorp Ltd. Another example would be Mr, which is an abbreviation of Mister. There are plenty more examples - in French, Mlle is an abbreviation of Mademoiselle. How would you expect a screen reader to speak these groups of characters? (Regardless of what tag they appear in.) I would certainly not expect an English-language based reader to keep a list of abreviations of all other foreign languages, so while a sighted user _may_ recognise Mlle and speak it out loud (I wouldn't - never learnt any French at school, fortunatly) it seems a very long leap for a screen reader. Regards, Mike Tricky one :-) I'm not sure whether screen readers have dictionaries of common abbreviations, although it appears that sometimes, even if they did, the Microsoft APIs would muck things up for them: http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_support/BulletinView.cfm?QC=511 but, as that article shows, they - or at least Jaws, and I believe SuperNova - do allow for custom dictionaries; maybe a community effort could compile useful collections of such abbreviations for users to download. As far as the case of something like Mlle. is concerned, I would expect to mark it up as follows: abbr lang=fr title=MademoiselleMlle./abbr and I think one could argue (contrary to my earlier assertion) that, in this kind of case, the abbreviation should be marked up using abbr for every occurrence, as that would hopefully allow screen reader users a seamless listening experience. Once again, it looks like there are no hard and fast rules about how to handle these matters. Ah well, having to think about it is what makes it fun :-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 5/11/07, Nick Fitzsimons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OED seems pretty clear on the issue: abbreviation, noun: a shortened form of a word or phrase http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/abbreviation acronym, noun: a word formed from the initial letters of other words (e.g. laser, Aids) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/acronym initialism, noun: an abbreviation consisting of initial letters pronounced separately (e.g. BBC) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/initialism Fantastic! This is exactly the sort of reference I was looking for--but I was unable to find a version of the OED through which I could search. If the OED says it, I'll buy it. Thanks, Nick! Dan Dorman *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Craig. Only the first occurrence on each page is advisable -- Regards - Rob Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk Linking in with others: http://linkedin.com/in/robkirton On 10/05/07, Craig Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be? For example, if I have a page devoted to explaining what a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is, should I tag MSA with the acronym tag every single time it's mentioned? -- CRAIG BAILEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] 67 Union St. #2D, Winooski, Vt. 05404.1948 USA www.floydianslip.com | 802.655.1197 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
-Original Message- Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be? For example, if I have a page devoted to explaining what a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is, should I tag MSA with the acronym tag every single time it's mentioned? Isn't it just an abbreviation rather then an acronym? If not, how do you pronounce it? Mesa? The HTML spec is, sadly, unclear on this point. WCAG suggests: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-abbr -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Quoting David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Isn't it just an abbreviation rather then an acronym? If not, how do you pronounce it? Mesa? Good question. We pronounce it M-S-A. Should I be using the abbreviation tag? -- CRAIG BAILEY [EMAIL PROTECTED] 67 Union St. #2D, Winooski, Vt. 05404.1948 USA www.floydianslip.com | 802.655.1197 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Since most web pages are skimmed rather than being read in a traditional, linear fashion, it makes sense to use the full tag and attributes on every occasion. The traditional, print-based method was to only expand the abbreviation/acronym on first use, to save space, but this does not apply to an attribute applied to a web page tag, which takes up zero visible space. Mike From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Kirton Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:33 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage Craig. Only the first occurrence on each page is advisable -- Regards - Rob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Craig Bailey wrote: Quoting David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Isn't it just an abbreviation rather then an acronym? If not, how do you pronounce it? Mesa? Good question. We pronounce it M-S-A. Should I be using the abbreviation tag? no. msa is an acronym just like ms is an acronym for multiple sclorosis and nasa is an acronym for national aeronautical and space administration. ms. is an abreviation for miss or miz. as mr. is an abreviation mister. -- Dwain Alford http://www.studiokdd.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 10 May 2007, at 15:46:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since most web pages are skimmed rather than being read in a traditional, linear fashion, it makes sense to use the full tag and attributes on every occasion. The traditional, print-based method was to only expand the abbreviation/acronym on first use, to save space, but this does not apply to an attribute applied to a web page tag, which takes up zero visible space. On the other hand, screen-readers are generally configured by default to always read out the expansion of text marked up as an abbreviation (that is, the contents of the title attribute), so using abbr (or the non-standard acronym) repeatedly will force users of such assistive technologies to listen to the full version on every occurrence in the page. From what I've heard, this gets irritating pretty quickly, and could be seen as diminishing the accessibility of the page. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
That is a good point, though again it is assuming that the page will be read in a fully linear fashion. Depending on the nature of the page, a compromise of the first time per 'section' might be better. Again compare with a printed page where it is relatively easy for a sighted person to pick out the first use of an acronym / abbreviation on that page in order to get a reminder of what it means, or if the definition was skipped. I would imagine that this would be virtually impossible for a screen reader user to do, and if possible, skipping back to where they were would surely be impossible. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Fitzsimons Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage On the other hand, screen-readers are generally configured by default to always read out the expansion of text marked up as an abbreviation (that is, the contents of the title attribute), so using abbr (or the non-standard acronym) repeatedly will force users of such assistive technologies to listen to the full version on every occurrence in the page. From what I've heard, this gets irritating pretty quickly, and could be seen as diminishing the accessibility of the page. Regards, Nick. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 10 May 2007, at 16:10:55, Nick Fitzsimons wrote: On the other hand, screen-readers are generally configured by default to always read out the expansion of text marked up as an abbreviation (that is, the contents of the title attribute), so using abbr (or the non-standard acronym) repeatedly will force users of such assistive technologies to listen to the full version on every occurrence in the page. From what I've heard, this gets irritating pretty quickly, and could be seen as diminishing the accessibility of the page. Apologies, when I said non-standard acronym, I really meant something to the effect of supported on IE 6, which abbr isn't. Not sure how my fingers twisted what my brain was saying - maybe I just think non-standard every time I think of IE ;-) Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
From: Craig Bailey For example, if I have a page devoted to explaining what a Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is, should I tag MSA with the acronym tag every single time it's mentioned? I'd use the element (abbr) each time MSA appears in the document and would expand the title on its first occurence... 4.2 Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr In case you're interested, I wrote these two scripts awhile ago: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/how_to_expand_abbreviations.asp --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Hello Criag, Just how extensive should our use of the acronym tag be? Not very, IMO. We have some food for thought for you at Accessites. http://accessites.org/site/2007/02/dealing-with-acronyms-abbreviations/ Cheers. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 10 May 2007, at 16:08:49, russ - maxdesign wrote: Initialisms are subsets of abbreviations. So theoretically this should be marked up using the abbr element: abbr title= Metropolitan Statistical AreaM.S.A./abbr The problem is that the abbr is poorly supported by IE5 and IE6. This means you may have to (1) revert to using the acronym element, or (2) place a span inside your abbr element and style this instead or (3) use JavaScript: http://annevankesteren.nl/2003/08/improved-styling-abbr-in-ie If using JS is acceptable (and it will only exclude a tiny proportion of visitors to most sites), then you can force IE 6 (and probably 5.x) to correctly parse abbr such that it can be styled (there's no default styling) by executing the following line of code before the page is parsed - that is, either using inline script in the head, or an external script file containing this line: document.createElement(abbr); This causes IE to correctly make the contained text a child of the abbr element, and omit the creation of a DOM node called /abbr - I described this bug some time ago at http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/2005/05/17/obscure-internet-explorer- bugs-1-of-who-knows/. It seems as if the use of createElement makes IE assume that it had better act as if it understands the name of the created element, even though it doesn't. This is why the line of code must be executed before the abbr is parsed - in fact, I have a test case demonstrating that if the JS comes between two paragraphs each containing an abbr then the first will be incorrectly parsed and the second correctly parsed (in the sense of creating a valid DOM construct). I gave a presentation about this at BarCampLondon2, but haven't yet got around to blogging it - I'll get it written up over the weekend and post a link back here, to give those interested a fuller understanding of what appears to be going on in the bowels of the browser. Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
From: Nick Fitzsimons On the other hand, screen-readers are generally configured by default to always read out the expansion of text marked up as an abbreviation (that is, the contents of the title attribute), so using abbr (or the non-standard acronym) repeatedly will force users of such assistive technologies to listen to the full version on every occurrence in the page. From what I've heard, this gets irritating pretty quickly, and could be seen as diminishing the accessibility of the page. Then I think it is a screen-reader issue as I believe there is no point to have this as default setting since documents are supposed to contain the expansion in plain text already... Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Hi,
The first time you use the acronym on each page it should be should
accompanied with the full name. So this wouldn't need the acromym tag.
Further uses of the acronym should be enclosed in the acronym tag.
I usually use CSS to give it a dotted underline and change the cursor to a
question mark:
acronym {
font-weight: 800;
border-bottom: 1px dotted black;
cursor: help;
}
(For the semantics debate see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym - if
you have a few hours to spare)
Yours
Stuart
--
Stuart Foulstone.
http://www.bigeasyweb.co.uk
BigEasy Web Design
69 Flockton Court
Rockingham Street
Sheffield
S1 4EB
Tel. 07751 413451
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
RE: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz Then I think it is a screen-reader issue as I believe there is no point to have this as default setting since documents are supposed to contain the expansion in plain text already... Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr Well ... (a) Those are guidelines which are designed (among other things) to work around limitations in user agents And (b) It doesn't say in plain text, and the example given uses the title attribute: PWelcome to the ACRONYM title=World Wide WebWWW/ACRONYM! (and its another initilism mislabelled as an acronym) -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ http://blog.dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 10 May 2007, at 16:55:01, Thierry Koblentz wrote: From: Nick Fitzsimons On the other hand, screen-readers are generally configured by default to always read out the expansion of text marked up as an abbreviation (that is, the contents of the title attribute), so using abbr (or the non-standard acronym) repeatedly will force users of such assistive technologies to listen to the full version on every occurrence in the page. From what I've heard, this gets irritating pretty quickly, and could be seen as diminishing the accessibility of the page. Then I think it is a screen-reader issue as I believe there is no point to have this as default setting since documents are supposed to contain the expansion in plain text already... That's not what WCAG says: Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr ... is followed by HTML Techniques: Acronyms and abbreviations which links to http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-abbr which says 'Checkpoints in this section: 4.2 Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] Mark up abbreviations and acronyms with ABBR and ACRONYM and use title to indicate the expansion' So the checkpoint is stating the the abbr or acronym element should be used for this purpose, _not_ that the abbreviation or acronym should be expanded _in_the_text_of_the_page_ (although that isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if it means a screen-reader user will hear the expansion twice - that's still better than hearing it every time it's used). Regards, Nick. -- Nick Fitzsimons http://www.nickfitz.co.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 5/10/07, David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (and its another initilism mislabelled as an acronym) Actually, that's correct usage of acronym, in terms of both HTML syntax and dictionary definition [1]. It just depends on how one thinks of an acronym. Incidentally, it it strikes me as somewhat silly to fuss about whether to use an acronym or a abbr tag, when the two terms are effectively synonymous, but I'd lean toward always using abbr, since it's an umbrella term that can encompass acronyms, alphabetisms, initiliasms, or whatever else you want to call them, as well as terms that are simply being abbreviated. Since the word acronym seems to have more use internationally [2], that's one point in favor of acronym, but again, if it's covered by abbr, why bother? (Other than IE 6, of course--by the way, thanks for that tip, Nick, I'll have to give it a whirl.) 1. http://m-w.com/dictionary/acronym 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym#Nomenclature Dan Dorman *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
From: David Dorward Then I think it is a screen-reader issue as I believe there is no point to have this as default setting since documents are supposed to contain the expansion in plain text already... Specify the expansion of each abbreviation or acronym in a document where it first occurs. [Priority 3] http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-TECHS/#tech-expand-abbr (a) Those are guidelines which are designed (among other things) to work around limitations in user agents and (b) It doesn't say in plain text, and the example given uses the title attribute: Wow! This is very interesting. I didn't check that example before; because the way I understood the recommendation made complete sense to me. Use the title attribute to indicate the expansion and specificy the expansion in plain text when it first occurs But looking at this example, it seems that plain text is not part of the picture at all (why?). And also, *why* using specify and then indicate in almost the same sentance, like if it was two different things? Just to confuse people? :) Looking at it that way then it's a whole different story and I agree that it means the title attribute should be part of the first occurence only. As a side note, it shows that this makes sense re (a) as Nick mentionned the issue with the repetition in the markup regarding default SR settings. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 11/5/07 1:08 AM, russ - maxdesign [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, technically this is not an acroynm or even a tag. :) An acronym is defined as a WORD formed from the initial letters of a multi-word name. The important point here is that an acronym must be a WORD - this means that the joined initial letters must be able to be pronounced. http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/abbreviations/ Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) is actually an initialism - An abbreviation pronounced as the names of the individual letters formed only from the initial letter of constituent words. Initialisms are subsets of abbreviations. So theoretically this should be marked up using the abbr element: abbr title= Metropolitan Statistical AreaM.S.A./abbr The problem is that the abbr is poorly supported by IE5 and IE6. This means you may have to (1) revert to using the acronym element, or (2) place a span inside your abbr element and style this instead or (3) use JavaScript: http://annevankesteren.nl/2003/08/improved-styling-abbr-in-ie The full stops between the letters in the initialism are used by some authors in order to allow screen readers to spell out the letters properly rather than coming out as a single unintelligible word - msah. Oh, and I'd vote for just the first instance on each page - as others have suggested. Thanks Russ Russ is indeed absolutely correct. These terms are confused all the time, and while colloquial use might have become blurred in recent years, their technical definitions have not. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ # This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal # This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information in this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. The College does not guarantee that this e-mail is virus or error free. The attached files are provided and may only be used on the basis that the user assumes all responsibility for any loss, damage or consequence resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not. The content and opinions in this e-mail are not necessarily those of the College. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 5/10/07, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ is indeed absolutely correct. These terms are confused all the time, and while colloquial use might have become blurred in recent years, their technical definitions have not. I'm genuinely interested in seeing some references on the proper technical definitions of the terms; apparently even linguists don't agree, and fifty/sixty years of usage (at least) seems a rather loose interpretation of recent years. I was unable to dig up any positive position one way or t'other, just varying opinion. I promise, I won't argue any more on the matter, since this is getting awfully pedantic, but I am genuinely curious: if anyone has some concrete sources on the subject, please let me know; off list would be fine. Dan Dorman *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
On 11/5/07 10:23 AM, Dan Dorman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/10/07, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russ is indeed absolutely correct. These terms are confused all the time, and while colloquial use might have become blurred in recent years, their technical definitions have not. I'm genuinely interested in seeing some references on the proper technical definitions of the terms; apparently even linguists don't agree, and fifty/sixty years of usage (at least) seems a rather loose interpretation of recent years. I was unable to dig up any positive position one way or t'other, just varying opinion. I promise, I won't argue any more on the matter, since this is getting awfully pedantic, but I am genuinely curious: if anyone has some concrete sources on the subject, please let me know; off list would be fine. Dan Dorman Dan - I sent you an email offlist. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ # This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal # This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information in this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. The College does not guarantee that this e-mail is virus or error free. The attached files are provided and may only be used on the basis that the user assumes all responsibility for any loss, damage or consequence resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not. The content and opinions in this e-mail are not necessarily those of the College. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Acronym tag usage
Oh, and I'd vote for just the first instance on each page - as others have
suggested.
I've been thinking about this, and I think that each time the
abbreviation is mentioned it should be marked up. That is the only way
to get across your specialised aural styles. Unless screen-readers have
a learning ability for each page?
You do not necessarily need to add the title attribute for each instance
after the first.
Also, from a typographical aspect, you may wish to place your
initialisms in small-caps, and the best way to target them is through
abbr.initialism {...}
Kat
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
