Microsoft is and has undoubtedly used the coercive power of their
market dominance to interfere with OTHER businesses. What you are
presenting here is a double standard. You are saying that governments
(whose accountability is to the benefit of the public at large) should
not be allowed to
Michael Horowitz wrote:
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products
It's not a free market, it's a market for lemons.
Rob
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On Dec 16, 2007, at 9:17 PM, Michael Horowitz wrote:
Ask yourself where have you ever seen government controlled
economies beat a free market one.
This is not about government CONTROL, but government REGULATION. And
no they are not the same thing.
But this is (supposed to be) a web
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 2:18 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Ask yourself where have you ever seen
Michael Horowitz wrote:
It would be a wonderful world.
I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in
these areas.
Assuming you're being serious, I would love to hear your reasoning for
this. With most things even remotely technical now happily existing in
a market
Do you forcibly work for the government or do you offer your services in
the free market? Does your company hire the worst developers and
designers or the best it can afford at the salary it is willing to pay.
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products based
on the
Michael Horowitz wrote:
In the free market their tends to be high and low quality products based
on the price the buyer wishes to pay. You can buy a Lexus or you can by
Kia. All transactions are between a willing buyer and seller.
Only until you get to a situation of oligopoly or monopoly.
Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market. I think that shows how
you are not correct. I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
establishing good copy protection
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
On Dec 16, 2007 7:06 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does your company hire the worst developers and
designers or the best it can afford at the salary it is willing to pay.
I just finished working for a company that would hire the worst
developers and designers. I think it was
On Dec 16, 2007 8:27 PM, Michael Horowitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market. I think that shows how
you are not correct. I also suspect that Open Office is going to start
challenging Microsoft as well. Especially is MSFT succeeds with
establishing good
Michael Horowitz wrote:
Look how Firefox has grown to 16% of the market. I think that shows how
you are not correct.
Aeh..you ARE aware of the various antitrust actions the government took
to prevent MSFT from becoming an actual monopoly, don't you? Without
government action in the past,
Again this isn't about supporting one company over another. It's about
using the coercive power of government to control someone elses private
property (which is what a business is)
I don't like a lot of how MSFT does things. But they don't control the
world. Frontpage died while
And see what happens to the company in the market.
6 months ago I was let go because my boss thought I was a threat to his
job. The company continues a spiral towards bankruptcy. They are the
oldest company in their business and their chief competitor beats them
every time they go head to
Michael Horowitz wrote:
And see what happens to the company in the market.
The damage has already been done however. What happens when rather then
it being a piece of software thats faulty, its a car. or a child's toy,
or an aeroplane. Sure, eventually the company would get its just
deserts,
Guys,
While the thread is interesting, do try to keep it on the topic of *web
standards*.
Some of the points which are either off topic or verging there include:
- is Microsoft the boogey man?
- should the government implement standards.
The thread is still open, and it will stay that way if
Designer/Developer
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Storey
Sent: Friday, 14 December, 2007 11:16 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
I just one to make one point about
Al Sparber wrote:
[...]
Reducing the disparities is not the same as eliminating disparities.
It is human nature to make mistakes. It's often the best way to
learn.
Yes, it is. However, it is not human nature to make use of what they
have, or should have learned, if they can get away with
On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 12:19:26 am Michael Horowitz wrote:
I can't see why government should be enforcing standards. Shouldn't
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
government?
Michael Horowitz
Governments enforce and specify standards every day, that is what we
It would be a wonderful world.
I can't imagine how government does anything but lower standards in
these areas.
Lets fire every do nothing government regulator and give us our tax
money back.
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079
Steve
Michael Horowitz wrote:
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
lol
.Matthew Cruickshank
http://holloway.co.nz/
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I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not
involved in it in any way). The complaint is manly about getting
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't
about money at all. I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't
want to earn any
-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Storey
Sent: 14 December 2007 09:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not
involved
Al Sparber wrote:
From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually
nothing pre installed. I always end up deleting most of it anyway.
Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all
the junk the PC manufacturers put
On Dec 14, 2007 8:41 PM, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why was Silverlight included?
As far as I am aware it's a plug-in much like Flash,
so why would it be hindering the open web?
Of course I don't know why Opera has included Silverlight, but to speculate...
It might be because of
I just gonna say a few words...
I dont know and i dont care about laws, one thing iam sure if
microsoft could they just erase all other companys and all goes by
theres rules, i believe all companys do that.
The problem is that microsfot dont care about theirs users, dont care
if they could can
I can't see why government should be enforcing standards. Shouldn't
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
government?
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
561-394-9079
Al Sparber wrote:
From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL
PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 2:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Does anyone really believe government officials have a better
ability to run your business than you do
On 14 Dec 2007, at 14:42, Michael Horowitz wrote:
A monopoly is when government gives someone the ability to legally
ban competitors.
That is a specific type of monopoly (a government-granted monopoly).
Other types of monopoly exist.
It's not difficult to go to
John Faulds wrote:
I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping
their OS with Safari?
It may no longer be the case, (since there is no supported version
available) but Apple DID include Internet Explorer on all Apple Mac's,
even when Safari became available. What's
On 2007/12/14 09:42 (GMT-0500) Michael Horowitz apparently typed:
A monopoly is when government gives someone the ability to legally ban
competitors.
You've provided a rough definition of a legal monopoly. An entity convicted
of the felony of monopolistic predation as M$ has been falls into
On 2007/12/14 08:19 (GMT-0500) Michael Horowitz apparently typed:
I can't see why government should be enforcing standards. Shouldn't
that be a decision of private companies, developers and users not
government?
In the absence of dominating monopoly, sure.
--
Our Constitution was made
That is correct people go into business to make money. They do so by
willing sellers selling to willing buyers and a price they willingly
agree to.
Why do people by certain products, because they decided that product
resolves their real world need.
The baker doesn't bake bread so you can
So buy advertising.
Do you really think government officials are so tech savvy that they can
make this type of decision. Are you generally that impressed by the
government officials you work with.
Yes consumers need to be educated. I typically install firefox on any
customer I work with,
: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part
Does anyone really believe government officials have a better
ability to run your business than you do?
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Oh, in particular this quote from Brendan Eich,
the obvious conflict of interest between the standards-based web and
proprietary platforms advanced by Microsoft, and the rationales for
keeping the web's language small while the proprietary platforms
rapidly evolve support for large languages,
On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Genesis One And One wrote:
I want another OS that works like Windoze but is better than
Windoze. I wish Mozilla would develop one. Their products are
already consumer friendly etc. Imagine a FFOS. I would imagine M$
poor customer support and glitchy
Jason Pruim wrote:
On Dec 14, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Genesis One And One wrote:
I want another OS that works like Windoze but is better than Windoze.
I wish Mozilla would develop one. Their products are already consumer
friendly etc. Imagine a FFOS. I would imagine M$ poor customer
support
On 14/12/2007, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No offense, but (imo) anyone who believes what you just wrote is extremely
naive. While all web developers want standards conformance (whether they
admit it or not), an industry with multiple browsers is not a healthy
industry. No 2 browsers
From: David Storey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not
involved in it in any way). The complaint is manly about getting
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't
about money at all. I believe we (Opera) have stated
From: liorean [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 14/12/2007, Al Sparber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No offense, but (imo) anyone who believes what you just wrote is
extremely
naive. While all web developers want standards conformance (whether they
admit it or not), an industry with multiple browsers is not a
First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle
Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers
pre-installed on the desktop.
I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping
their OS with Safari?
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 09:05:11
quote who=John Faulds
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed standard-compliant
alternatives to IE/win isn't a
technical problem, so why not?
I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as equally
a valid question as 'why not?'.
My latest computer with
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed standard-compliant
alternatives to IE/win isn't a
technical problem, so why not?
I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as equally
a valid question as 'why not?'.
My latest computer with Vista came pre-intalled
quote who=Gunlaug Sørtun
John Faulds wrote:
First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle
Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers
pre-installed on the desktop.
I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop
shipping their OS
but their os should be able to run other optional packages that the
customer chooses.
Out of all the applications Gav I mentioned previously, all the
alternatives are easily installed on Windows (including Vista), and that's
certainly the case for other browsers, so I don't really see
i guess i stand corrected.
dwain
On 12/13/07, Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
drivers are the responsibility of the vendors. As is the ability of
running other software. Vista is essentially a framework for software
developers - it is there responsibility to ensure it works - not
drivers are the responsibility of the vendors. As is the ability of running
other software. Vista is essentially a framework for software developers -
it is there responsibility to ensure it works - not Microsofts.
On Dec 14, 2007 11:01 AM, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/13/07, Gav...
John Faulds wrote:
Delivering their OSes with half a dozen pre-installed
standard-compliant alternatives to IE/win isn't a technical
problem, so why not?
I'm no lawyer and I'm also no MS fanboy, but I think 'why?' is as
equally a valid question as 'why not?'.
Indeed. Which would make any
On 12/13/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 12/13/07, Gav... [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
No, OS suppliers should have the option of providing whatever default
packages they want, and leave the options open for users to install their
own alternatives. Those that need a better, standards
On 12/13/07, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
First, it requests the Commission to obligate Microsoft to unbundle
Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers
pre-installed on the desktop.
I can't see that flying. Is anyone going to ask Apple to stop shipping
their OS
I think Opera considers this to be a slightly different case then that
of email clients, cd burning software, etc. The key point in here I
think is that Internet Explorer has low standards-compliance, which
hinders the development of internet-based projects. I don't think it's
so much they it
From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My concern with the complaint is that it is clearly twofold; that
Microsoft is holding standards back, and that Microsoft is holding
competitors back. One is valid, the other is clearly business.
Here's another way to look at it...
Microsoft is a
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually
nothing pre installed. I always end up deleting most of it anyway.
Alot of people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the
junk the PC manufacturers put on.
Michael Horowitz
Your Computer Consultant
How do you legally distinguish standards-compliant from
non-compliant anyway? IE is clearly the worst of the bunch, but I'm
not aware of a browser that doesn't have any rendering bugs. Would
the requirement be be at least as compliant as opera? And if so,
how do you measure that? Acid2?
On 2007/12/13 23:04 (GMT-0500) Christian Snodgrass apparently typed:
I think if IE was standards-compliant, we wouldn't be seeing this.
Mostly I agree, but also I think another issue is that too many people think
IE *is* THE internet, and don't know better, or even any, other options exist
for
From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Personally I'm looking forward to buying computers with virtually nothing
pre installed. I always end up deleting most of it anyway. Alot of
people start off by reinstalling the OS to get rid of all the junk the PC
manufacturers put on.
Indeed. But
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