Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
Jim, Mike and all experts, May I repeat a bit history of 'split' in the WSJT-X as I have learned it. 1# The split operation or split mode is mentioned on the radio settings. It defines how WSJT-X controls radio and that's the only usage of the split word in the User Manual. 2# Limiting the usage of the split word to that most probably was a logical decision to prevent mixing it to the 'split working', hi! Well, in reality WSJT was designed for various weak signal modes especially EME and there is (was) no need for any split working as known in HF pileups! 3# Unfortunately that choice is shown to be very misleading to HF operators due to the split (working) practices in other modes, CW and SSB. 4# We should dilute the situation by adding suitable words both into the 'split operation' section(s) and the 'Hold Tx Freq' section(s) in the User Guide. The 'split operation' may just need a 'warning' that this is not the 'classical' split working as the transmitted frequency does change. The 'split mode' as such is clear and no need to make any addition. The 'Hold Tx Freq' description/recommendation may require just a statement that this is the (classical) split working as known in DX pileups and should not be mixed with the CAT control related 'split operation' of the rig. WSJT-X may or may not use the 'split operation' in the 'split working' depending on the selected Tx audio frequency. My second 2 cents. 73, Reino OH3mA > -Original Message- > From: Jim Brown via wsjt-devel [mailto:wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net] > Sent: tiistai 2. toukokuuta 2023 7.29 > To: wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > Cc: Jim Brown > Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles > > On 5/1/2023 8:31 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote: > > Nobody owns the definition of split > > Mike, > > For as long as I've been a ham (68 years) "split" operation has meant > transmitting on a frequency DIFFERENT from the station you're working. > The most common application is for a DX station in a rare location, when he > tells callers to call higher in frequency. I suspect that this was common practice > years before my time. > > I'm only guessing, but several decisions made by the developers of WSJT modes > had little if any experience on the HF bands. One decision was to use the word > "split" to describe something entirely different from what it had meant since at > least since at least the early 1950s. Another bad decision was the choice of FT4 > operating frequency on 40M. Another was to allow far more empty space > between watering holes for what has become nearly a dozen on the HF bands. If > a WSJT-X channel is 2.8 kHz, 3 kHz spacing makes far more sense than ten! > > My training is electrical engineering, and except for having learned to use > computers and software operationally, I live in the analog world. I wouldn't > dream of diving into digital and software and start defining things or > establishing practices for that world -- I'd learn what those practices were and > follow them! > > > as for confusing hams they are > > only confused because they refuse to learn. > > Hams are confused with "split" in WSJT-X 1) because it's NOT "split" as defined > within ham radio since the early '50s; and 2) because they don't understand > how SSB is used to transmit and receive digital modes. > > If anyone had asked me what to call the practice of shifting the TX frequency > and audio frequency in opposite directions to minimize audio distortion I would > have suggested the word "shift" or "TX shift," > because that's what WSJT-X is doing. "Shift" is the wrong word! > > And when we follow the good operating practice of never calling another > FT8 or FT4 on their own frequency, we ARE working split! > > BTW -- they guys who developed hardware and software for SDRs did something > equally uniformed, using the word "diversity" to describe something that wasn't > diversity - diversity reception was first used in the earliest days of radio (at least > the 1920s) to deal with selective fading). > > 73, Jim K9YC > > > > > > > ___ > wsjt-devel mailing list > wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
On 5/1/2023 8:31 PM, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote: Nobody owns the definition of split Mike, For as long as I've been a ham (68 years) "split" operation has meant transmitting on a frequency DIFFERENT from the station you're working. The most common application is for a DX station in a rare location, when he tells callers to call higher in frequency. I suspect that this was common practice years before my time. I'm only guessing, but several decisions made by the developers of WSJT modes had little if any experience on the HF bands. One decision was to use the word "split" to describe something entirely different from what it had meant since at least since at least the early 1950s. Another bad decision was the choice of FT4 operating frequency on 40M. Another was to allow far more empty space between watering holes for what has become nearly a dozen on the HF bands. If a WSJT-X channel is 2.8 kHz, 3 kHz spacing makes far more sense than ten! My training is electrical engineering, and except for having learned to use computers and software operationally, I live in the analog world. I wouldn't dream of diving into digital and software and start defining things or establishing practices for that world -- I'd learn what those practices were and follow them! as for confusing hams they are only confused because they refuse to learn. Hams are confused with "split" in WSJT-X 1) because it's NOT "split" as defined within ham radio since the early '50s; and 2) because they don't understand how SSB is used to transmit and receive digital modes. If anyone had asked me what to call the practice of shifting the TX frequency and audio frequency in opposite directions to minimize audio distortion I would have suggested the word "shift" or "TX shift," because that's what WSJT-X is doing. "Shift" is the wrong word! And when we follow the good operating practice of never calling another FT8 or FT4 on their own frequency, we ARE working split! BTW -- they guys who developed hardware and software for SDRs did something equally uniformed, using the word "diversity" to describe something that wasn't diversity - diversity reception was first used in the earliest days of radio (at least the 1920s) to deal with selective fading). 73, Jim K9YC ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
Thankyou Mike 73 vk4tux On 2/5/23 13:31, Black Michael via wsjt-devel wrote: Nobody owns the definition of splitas for confusing hams they are only confused because they refuse to learn. #1 Rigs have a split button -- it lights up. That's split mode -- no requirement that VFOB be on any different frequency than VFOA. You can run CW Skimmer on an IC-7300 with VFOA on FM mode to give you 12KHz width for receive and VFOB on CW to transmit -- that's split mode too and you may be in a CW contest working operators on their frequency or working a DXpedition in frequency split. #2 Nobody has ever come up with a simple word to describe the audio split done in WSJT-X modes. It does follow the tx on 1 and rx on another in the audio space and does in audio what different frequencies do so it is just split using another method. You could shift audio by changing frequency if you wanted to. #3 This discussion comes up every couple of years and never goes anywhere other than to educate some people about the audio split. #4 When you pick "Rig Split" in WSJT-X your rig goes into split mode -- it doesn't know why you want to do it and that's what some are arguing is the "why"it's still split mode as the little light is lit up. Fake It was done for rigs that didn't handle Rig Split well and None for rigs that can't do either or don't need either (there are a few).' So we have: #1 Rig split -- hardware -- could be RF or just mode or cross-band #2 Freq (RF) split -- operations (WSJT-X Fake It) #3 Audio (AF) split -- software CW/Phone people use #1 and #2. WSJT-X uses all 3. A lot of the motivation for Rig Split and Fake It came from people overdriving their audio and the subsequent harmonics. WA1SXK and I have been on the warpath for over 3 years helping clean up all these harmonic generators...it's pretty rare to see them now as we have contacted hundreds of operators and have a paper on my QRZ page explaining how to set up your audio to avoid it. Mike W9MDB On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 08:05:31 PM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel wrote: All the online definitions I find for 'split' operation are ; Split means transmitting on one frequency and listening on another. referring to your own station, without reference to anyone else. ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
Nobody owns the definition of splitas for confusing hams they are only confused because they refuse to learn. #1 Rigs have a split button -- it lights up. That's split mode -- no requirement that VFOB be on any different frequency than VFOA. You can run CW Skimmer on an IC-7300 with VFOA on FM mode to give you 12KHz width for receive and VFOB on CW to transmit -- that's split mode too and you may be in a CW contest working operators on their frequency or working a DXpedition in frequency split.#2 Nobody has ever come up with a simple word to describe the audio split done in WSJT-X modes. It does follow the tx on 1 and rx on another in the audio space and does in audio what different frequencies do so it is just split using another method. You could shift audio by changing frequency if you wanted to.#3 This discussion comes up every couple of years and never goes anywhere other than to educate some people about the audio split.#4 When you pick "Rig Split" in WSJT-X your rig goes into split mode -- it doesn't know why you want to do it and that's what some are arguing is the "why"it's still split mode as the little light is lit up. Fake It was done for rigs that didn't handle Rig Split well and None for rigs that can't do either or don't need either (there are a few).' So we have:#1 Rig split -- hardware -- could be RF or just mode or cross-band#2 Freq (RF) split -- operations (WSJT-X Fake It)#3 Audio (AF) split -- software CW/Phone people use #1 and #2. WSJT-X uses all 3. A lot of the motivation for Rig Split and Fake It came from people overdriving their audio and the subsequent harmonics. WA1SXK and I have been on the warpath for over 3 years helping clean up all these harmonic generators...it's pretty rare to see them now as we have contacted hundreds of operators and have a paper on my QRZ page explaining how to set up your audio to avoid it. Mike W9MDB On Monday, May 1, 2023 at 08:05:31 PM CDT, Adrian via wsjt-devel wrote: All the online definitions I find for 'split' operation are ; Split means transmitting on one frequency and listening on another. referring to your own station, without reference to anyone else. ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
On Tue, 2 May 2023 10:57:17 +1000 Adrian via wsjt-devel wrote: You STILL do not understand. > All the online definitions I find for 'split' operation are ; > > Split means transmitting on one frequency and listening on another. > > referring to your own station, without reference to anyone else. You are reading something in that is not there. The implication is that you are listening on a frequency for a station that you intend to work! Why else your you be running split? That does not change what I wrote. > FT8 is not a 'listening' mode. It is visual receiving 3 - 4 Khz wide > including wherever you are TX. decoding via software all of that traffic > decoded. The software is "listening". Much the same way as you are listening to a CQ pile-up and decoding multiple signals with the software between your ears. The radio cares not whether you are listening or the software is listening. It does not even care what the modulation encoding is of the received signal. All it cares is the frequency. > The RX marker is just a filter to display that rx mark decode slice on > the right pane for easier reading and message store. Not relevant. The station you are decoding that you intend to call is your QSO partner. His frequency is important. > > So wherever you TX you will always hear/see response at that same point, > on the rx timeslot. No, you will not. If you or whoever calls you selects Hold TX Freq and puts TX in a clear spot that is not the QSO partner's transmit offset (which is best practice) that is RF split. QED. Ask Joe Taylor. > When the software rig/fake enabled attempts to keeps the audio in best > audio passband zone, > it changes the radio TX unmodulated (RF CP) frequency then adds the > audio to maintain TX mark position. This is what I defined as the Dial frequency. You are repeating what I wrote again. > My whole discussion here has been about the generation of the radio > signal, and the radio frequency shift involved, > before any audio is in the picture. The resultant radio frequency is created by the MFSK audio signal generated by WSJTX and heterodyned into the RF domain with a balanced mixer (modulator). That is the signal that is split or not depending on whether or not TX hold is used. The RF domain is a mirror of the audio waterfall at the suppressed carrier dial (base) frequency. Not at all unlike using a transverter. > I quite often use the vfo manually to change RF frequency to bring in > offscale spots, or align F/H stations. Dial frequency again. Resultant RF frequency is the absolute frequency of any given signal, not the dial frequency of your radio. Again, this is true of any mode. If you are using SSB your dial may say 14.250 but your resultant RF frequency is a cluster if individual tones between roughly 14.250300 and 14.253000. > The wsjtx cat commands do the same thing to the vfo in split. Rig split > does TX on Sub vfo and does require the radio to be have split activated. > > So to be told the radio is not changing RF frequency during these > changes, CAT or Manual driven, defies logic. Try to follow this. Say that your dial frequency id 14.074000. You have TX Hold enabled as is recommended and your TX is parked in a clear spot at 700 Hz. You call a station whom you are receiving at 1 KHz with your TX at 700 Hz and without rig split enabled. His RF signal is at 14.075000 (you have no idea what his dial frequency is). Your RF signal is transmitted at 14.074700. This is split. You enable your rig split. WSJTX moves your TX audio MFSK signal up to 1700 Hz for harmonic suppression, and also uses the rig's split feature to move your dial frequency done to 14.073000. Your transmitted RF frequency is still 14.074700. IT HAS NOT CHANGED! And it is still split. It is that simple. If you haven't got it now perhaps you should download and study the Hinson FT8 tips. 73 -Jim NU0C ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
All the online definitions I find for 'split' operation are ; Split means transmitting on one frequency and listening on another. referring to your own station, without reference to anyone else. FT8 is not a 'listening' mode. It is visual receiving 3 - 4 Khz wide including wherever you are TX. decoding via software all of that traffic decoded. The RX marker is just a filter to display that rx mark decode slice on the right pane for easier reading and message store. So wherever you TX you will always hear/see response at that same point, on the rx timeslot. When the software rig/fake enabled attempts to keeps the audio in best audio passband zone, it changes the radio TX unmodulated (RF CP) frequency then adds the audio to maintain TX mark position. If we were using voice there would be no argument due to the wide audio frequency range involved. My whole discussion here has been about the generation of the radio signal, and the radio frequency shift involved, before any audio is in the picture. I quite often use the vfo manually to change RF frequency to bring in offscale spots, or align F/H stations. The wsjtx cat commands do the same thing to the vfo in split. Rig split does TX on Sub vfo and does require the radio to be have split activated. So to be told the radio is not changing RF frequency during these changes, CAT or Manual driven, defies logic. vk4tux On 29/4/23 03:39, Jim Brown via wsjt-devel wrote: On 4/28/2023 7:04 AM, Sam W2JDB via wsjt-devel wrote: Yes I know exactly what split is in WSJT-X. And it is confusing to long time hams because it was a very poor choice of words, contrary to what "split" operation has meant on the HF bands for at least 70 years. "Split" in the context of ham radio means that you transmit on a frequency different from that of the station you are calling. The most common application is a rare DX station will listen for callers above his transmit frequency. 73, Jim K9YC___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
[wsjt-devel] 24 bit audio
Hello Joe! Can you answer: have any benefits (in dynamic range of decoding FT8) using more then 16 bit audio stream format under Windows 10? -- Sent from Mail.ru app for Android Monday, 01 May 2023, 05:18PM +03:00 from Joe Taylor via wsjt-devel wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net : >Hi Gary, > >On 4/26/2023 7:59 AM, K9RX wrote: > I had sent this on the 16^th of April but did not get a response… I > believe these are germane questions – and as far as I’ve been able to > tell they are not addressed in the manual. These pertain to the use of > “average” when running Q65. I’ve asked these questions in the EME group > – no one knew the answers but were also interested. > > 1. /Does average apply to each of multiple signals in the window?/ >Yes > > 2. /Is there a separate average queue for 1^st and 2^nd sequence? > (would be great if RXing both looking for stns)/ >Yes > > 3. /IF each signal has its own average: and if Auto Clear is on does it > only clear the averages for those that have now decoded or / > 4. /if only one station decodes and there are say 3 stations there (in > the averages) do all the averages now get cleared out?/ > >"Auto Clear Avg after decode" clears the averaging accumulator for the >relevant Odd or Even sequence when decoding at the selected offset >frequency is successful. The accumulator for the other sequence remains >intact. > >The small window near center of the status bar (see attached screen >shot) shows the number of Rx intervals available in the accumulator for >each sequence. > > I assumed 4. Which is why I turned off auto clear since if it is 4 above > it would never do an average if Lance, in the even cycle, always > decoded. And as mentioned I went from 0 averages in the AVG DEC window > with it on to several ongoing with it off. > >-- 73, Joe, K1JT >___ >wsjt-devel mailing list >wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Q65 false decode
Hi Gary, On 4/26/2023 7:59 AM, K9RX wrote: I had sent this on the 16^th of April but did not get a response… I believe these are germane questions – and as far as I’ve been able to tell they are not addressed in the manual. These pertain to the use of “average” when running Q65. I’ve asked these questions in the EME group – no one knew the answers but were also interested. 1. /Does average apply to each of multiple signals in the window?/ Yes 2. /Is there a separate average queue for 1^st and 2^nd sequence? (would be great if RXing both looking for stns)/ Yes 3. /IF each signal has its own average: and if Auto Clear is on does it only clear the averages for those that have now decoded or / 4. /if only one station decodes and there are say 3 stations there (in the averages) do all the averages now get cleared out?/ "Auto Clear Avg after decode" clears the averaging accumulator for the relevant Odd or Even sequence when decoding at the selected offset frequency is successful. The accumulator for the other sequence remains intact. The small window near center of the status bar (see attached screen shot) shows the number of Rx intervals available in the accumulator for each sequence. I assumed 4. Which is why I turned off auto clear since if it is 4 above it would never do an average if Lance, in the even cycle, always decoded. And as mentioned I went from 0 averages in the AVG DEC window with it on to several ongoing with it off. -- 73, Joe, K1JT___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
Re: [wsjt-devel] Fwd: Enhancement suggestion - 30 second cycles
Too funny, as the rx of both stations covers the entire pan bandwidth, the fact they are transmitting on a different pan slice within, does not qualify as 'audio split' in my book. If both were running 300Hz rx filters then it might qualify on matching tx/tx placement between two stations not running rig/fake split. Both stations can be running very similar audio frequencies and have the TX offset between then controlled mainly by the RF split frequency offset, which is what we are talking about. I can work 100Hz to 2900Hz in the pan keeping audio within 1500 - 2000 HZ , again what Rig split is designed for. I often do that re 300Hz Rfil RX with DX peditions, which gives a 20dB gain on the FTDX101MP here @! 300Hz , while taking out the callers. Using TX hold should be default behavior, jumping around the pan on target , has many competing for the same tx marker/timeslot whereas spread-out calls using the space, work much better for everyone. 73 vk4tux On 1/5/23 20:52, Jim Shorney wrote: Apparently this is really hard to understand. When the audio offset of your QSO partner and your TX audio offset are different your are running audio split. On Mon, 1 May 2023 15:58:55 +1000 Adrian wrote: There is no 'audio split' in WSJTX' TX audio is determined by mode, RF frequency and the TX marker. RX audio decode covers the pan bandwidth, with the RX marker filtered for the right pane display. vk4tux On 1/5/23 14:45, Jim Shorney via wsjt-devel wrote: audio split in WSJTX ___ wsjt-devel mailing list wsjt-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wsjt-devel
