[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, You raise a lot of questions here. I'll try to answer in a general way rather than going through them one by one. IMO... All judgement and classifications are from YOUR point-of-view. So when I said 'sincere student' I meant a person who is sincerely seeking relief from suffering. That is all. I used the word 'student' because in the context of the saying there was also a teacher, but certainly there are many who sincerely seek relief from suffering who do not have an access to a teacher. The person seeking relief is the only one who can judge whether he/she is really 'sincere' or not. I don't contend that there is only one way or one set of techniques to do this. There are many ways (paths/techniques) to alleviate suffering. Zen is just a name for one category which include Japanese Soto and Rinzai Zen Buddhism and many others. Chan Buddhism is very similar. Modern Western Zen Buddhist teachings can be effective. I do draw a line somewhere though. Not just EVERYTHING is zen as some seem to want to believe. I'm not saying that whatever others practice is wrong or ineffective, but I will say from time to time that what they describe is not zen - IMO... My point was just that if the seeker is sincere there are many ways available and these are not limited to tutoring by an experienced teacher. Personally I think going the teacher route is the best way, but that's probably because it worked well for me. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/9/2012 10:15 PM, Bill! wrote: a sincere student I have no reason to doubt the truth of that statement, but it raises a question in my mind, in regard to what qualifies a student to be considered sincere, /and by whom/? Obviously, if someone 'hangs around' a zendo or sangha for some reason other than attaining their own realization, that is insincere, but what about the (granted, probably unusual, but not merely hypothetical) case of a layman who has no contact with teachers, sanghas, or even other Buddhist laypersons, and pursues a practice for decades: /can/ such a person be insincere? What would the term signify, if applied in such a case? If, for instance, they 'use' some of the techniques that sangha-members also use: is there anyone who can say that their usage of these ancient techniques is in some way unjustified, let alone 'insincere'? Perhaps because the 'goal' is 'non-standard'? That might be considered heresy, by some, (by whom, and on what 'authority'?) but insincerity? On my view, the Great Way 'belongs' to anyone who sets out upon it; is that in accordance with your own view? Also, I think the analogy to a 'way' breaks down if we consider the fact that someone might utilize the ancient means to attain a state which, let us suppose, might not be recognized as 'correct' by someone who is (or merely believes they are) the heir of a tradition. Such an heir might well not be willing to grant inka, but have they any objective basis on which to judge that someone who chose to attain that non-standard realization is insincere? Just thinking about it. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe has expressed below my understanding of inca. It is a permission to teach, and does imply that the recipient both wants to and is able (in the opinion of his teacher)to teach. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote: RAF, and what did they or their heirs say in regard to their awards of inka? By the way, when it comes to _inka_, a thought comes to mind about what it signifies. Inka is given to a student who has awakened, and who has finished the formal part of training in the Master's lineage. But there are two other conditions which must obtain. These are, that the student must want to teach; and, that the student must be ABLE to teach. The student's feeling able to teach sometimes depends on the student having a place to teach, a space, a setting, in which to teach (rather than just out in the open air, for example). So, Inka is a seal of approval of a student's realization and worth, and an acknowledgement that the teacher knows that the student wants to teach and that he/she CAN teach. On the latter point, the student has probably served as an apprentice teacher under the master, and been trained in teaching, and has demonstrated ability, there, and been accepted by students training under him/her. I've just given a little fleshing-out of what I've gathered over the years that inka means. Yet, I find no answer to your question arising in me over the past days. Now, *these* answers are publicly available: my teacher Sheng Yen writes something of his training and experience and his being given authority to teach in two lineages of China, in his autobiography, FOOTPRINTS IN THE SNOW -- THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A CHINESE BUDDHIST MONK, 2008, Doubleday. It's a small book, 208 pages, and he calls this account of his life impressionistic, and not a perfect record (I don't think I've known another autobiographer ever to admit that). --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@ wrote: On 12/9/2012 11:10 AM, Joe wrote: There are confirmatory signs which a teacher can recognize I find myself more interested in the occasions when a /teacher/ emits a sign of /their/ illumination. Might you, or Bill, share with us some instances you have encountered in your time immersed in the American zen scene? You have mentioned Bernie whatshisname and Aitken, for instance; what did they do or say that stands out in your memory? Of course, I don't mean to confine such observations to them, and what did they or their heirs say in regard to their awards of inka? Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, If cultures manifest the genetic propensities and capacities of their demography, then what does that say about the American people/culture and the dropping of the atomic bomb on those 2 civilian populated cities? Mike --- On Tue, 11/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 11 December, 2012, 15:07 On 12/10/2012 10:31 PM, mike brown wrote: I`d say the social parasites are very few in number (at least on the lower end of the economic scale). You'll note that I gave 'pride of place' to the kleptocrats, who do damage all out of proportion to their numbers, not least through their unholy alliance with the political elites. People are born into ghettoes and slums thru no fault of their own. Like famine, these places exist because of the economic system we have inherited. Cultures manifest the genetic propensities and capacities of their demography. Consider Hiroshima/Nagasaki vs Detroit in 1945, compared to today ... Let`s also not forget that ... a pool of unemployed is great for the capitalist class to keep wages low. Quite true (and I was a worker and hourly wage earner, except when I created my own jobs) and that is precisely why the political elite love having a pool of illegal immigrant labor to depress wages and keep workers 'job scared'. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, Yes, that's right. Historically most monks and masters have all been beggars depending on food donated by working people Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Joe wrote: Merle, Historically, those old places lived on the handouts and donations of others, already!, themselves!, and they had to be very, very careful about who they let in. In old China, there was even some sanction by the government, and the monasteries had to be extra scrupulous and truly frugal, and squeeze every resource to dedicate them for their established students, and for the best-of-the-best incoming neophyte candidates. They were like sports teams!: they didn't just recruit every neighborhood waif drifting in, to shoot some hoops. They knew how to recognize talent. And there was an established way of proving one's fervor and stamina. If you failed those tests, they sent you home to your parents. This is called true compassion! It resulted in a vibrant teaching system, and the preservation of the living Dharma, to this day. Else, we would not even be typing here! ;-) The monasteries were Places of the Way, not way-places (not Inns). I prostrate to those old teachers, head-monks, head-nuns, and those Gate-Keepers. And to the folks who applied and tried, but who were not suited to that life, and were turned away. --Joe - Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: compassion doeth not judge. .if a man needth shelter and food for a thousand nights that is what must be done in the name of universal love and compassion. ..none of us know another man's journey...
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, Yes, there was a horrible story on the news just yesterday of parents down in W. Virginia encouraging their kids to fail their school classes so they could continue to claim they were 'disabled' and collect $500/month disability payments on their kids... As you say, generosity towards the poor often perpetuates their poverty Any generosity on the part of the government should be aimed at improving the underlying condition rather than perpetuating it... Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:27 PM, R A Fonda wrote: On 12/10/2012 9:33 PM, Joe wrote: those old places lived on the handouts and donations of others, already!, themselves!, and they had to be very, very careful about who they let in. Very true, but even today, let us imagine merle walking up to a modern American zen center and telling them that her superior vision of compassion obliges them to become homeless shelters, giving needy people a thousand days of food and shelter, or ten days, or even one day. One could hardly ask for a better example of how some people confuse higher consciousness with their self-righteous generosity with other people's money. I have no problem with them demonstrating compassion by giving their assets away ... I wonder how many homeless people she has living in HER 'squat'? The problem is that they band together to empower politicians to steal from the productive, and the political elites then share the loot with their kleptocrat allies or waste it on wars, or pay off their client electorates such as the government 'workers' and very little gets spent on the needy, many of whom, unfortunately, were social parasites rather than people who just had some bad luck. However, government mismanagement (including taking so much from the productive workers and investors) has now crippled the economy, so that there really ARE a lot of people who would LIKE to work, but there just aren't any jobs for them. Moreover, there are about the same number of unemployed American citizens as there are illegal immigrants, and people who share merle's views are SO compassionate toward those illegal immigrants that they don't stop to think how cruel it is for American workers to lose their homes because 'compassion' precludes reserving jobs for our own citizens. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Mike, Couldn't agree more. All the so called 'royal's should be put to work in the fields! Let them do some real work for a change! They are the biggest, most expensive social parasites of all Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, mike brown wrote: the biggest welfare cheats are the queen.. and her hangers on.. I saw a great quote on Facebook: `So Kate Middleton is pregnant.. I thought it was government policy to discourage those who don`t work to have children`. Awesome! Mike --- On Tue, 11/12/12, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 11 December, 2012, 14:35 yes mike..spot on...that is exactly how it is.. .however the old story still holds a punch..those dam dole bludgers... lazy pricks...go get a job.. makes those who are safe and secure so so self righteous..i can do it why cannot you? . the biggest welfare cheats are the queen of england and her hangers on... where oh where is the guillotine?...merle Comrade RAF, I`d say the social parasites are very few in number (at least on the lower end of the economic scale). People are born into ghettoes and slums thru no fault of their own. Like famine, these places exist because of the economic system we have inherited. It`s easy for those who have inherited wealth, or who have had lucky breaks, to exhort others to `pull themselves up by their bootstraps`. Let`s also not forget that governments often squash attempts at self sufficiency in communes etc. and a pool of unemployed is great for the capitalist class to keep wages low. Bother Mike --- On Tue, 11/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 11 December, 2012, 14:27 On 12/10/2012 9:33 PM, Joe wrote: those old places lived on the handouts and donations of others, already!, themselves!, and they had to be very, very careful about who they let in. Very true, but even today, let us imagine merle walking up to a modern American zen center and telling them that her superior vision of compassion obliges them to become homeless shelters, giving needy people a thousand days of food and shelter, or ten days, or even one day. One could hardly ask for a better example of how some people confuse higher consciousness with their self-righteous generosity with other people's money. I have no problem with them demonstrating compassion by giving their assets away ... I wonder how many homeless people she has living in HER 'squat'? The problem is that they band together to empower politicians to steal from the productive, and the political elites then share the loot with their kleptocrat allies or waste it on wars, or pay off their client electorates such as the government 'workers' and very little gets spent on the needy, many of whom, unfortunately, were social parasites rather than people who just had some bad luck. However, government mismanagement (including taking so much from the productive workers and investors) has now crippled the economy, so that there really ARE a lot of people who would LIKE to work, but there just aren't any jobs for them. Moreover, there are about the same number of unemployed American citizens as there are illegal immigrants, and people who share merle's views are SO compassionate toward those illegal immigrants that they don't stop to think how cruel it is for American workers to lose their homes because 'compassion' precludes reserving jobs for our own citizens. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, and Merle, More PC nonsense Joe. There are greater population densities in all the slums of the world than in elite wealthy neighborhoods. AND they need Buddhist teaching a lot more than the very well off. I agree with Merle here. Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a profit and become well known? Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 11:04 PM, Joe wrote: Merle, Please don't let your prejudices blacken your heart toward Subhana Barzaghi, Roshi. She lives in Sydney because it's a high population center, and *THERE ARE PEOPLE* there WHO WANT TO *LEARN*. If she lived at the foot of your hill, instead, who the hell would she have to teach? Only YOU!? ;-) You see? Don't be so silly; please. Trust me. She is a wonderful radical. You are a Tory by comparison. I doubt you'd last ten seconds under her eye, or in her compassionate care. ;-) And, ...I know you would *LOVE* her. Right, not much of her art on her site at present. What happened? Used to be tons. Just Google her full name, and maybe add art to the string. You may find her paintings depicted elsewhere. Her art is in many books; some of them are Zen books. She could maybe have taught Mister Kandinsky something about The Spiritual in Art. Or, certainly inspired him, at least in his writing, where it seems to me it would have helped. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: i check it out...yes i have googled her beforethank you for your interest .not much of her art there... will i send her a message?.. mmm i am concerned she bases herself in mosman sydney.. very expensive upper crust area... i believe we need to reach out to the poor and needy. to do the work of buddha and christ.. .and following in their paths we discard the need to charge money.. to give is to give freely. .to love is to love wholeheartedly.. to care is to care without strings attached. .you give till you can give no more and then you give again. .that is the path to enlightenment.. let the teacher come to the mountain top. then we will see... have a wise and precious day.. for you will not see this day again.
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, I was very impressed by this: By the time Vinoba had reached the conference, two thousand acres had been given back to the poorest villagers. Inspired by Vinoba's work, Vimala also walked across India from east to west and north to south and eventually ten million acres of land was given back to the landless poor without a single hand from the bureaucracy. Two important factors here: The land was FREELY GIVEN, which is a true act of compassion The land was not TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT Too many people consider themselves compassionate because they are willing to empower the government to steal from some to give to others they consider more deserving. I concede that some people deserve to have assets confiscated because they stole from others. For instance, Jon Corzine stole some of my hard-earned retirement funds, but since he is a crony and fund-raiser for Obama, not one penny of his ill-gotten gains have been taken for the benefit of those he victimized; he remains a billionaire and has never even been charged with a crime. If I could take his money and distribute it to those from whom he stole, I would do so, but that would simply be justice. To feel so 'compassionate' toward the poor that I help to empower the government to steal money from productive people to give to others is neither justice nor compassion. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 5:49 AM, mike brown wrote: what does that say about the American people/culture and the dropping of the atomic bomb on those 2 civilian populated cities? First, let me say that I believe the US DROVE the Japanese into that war, and that the American people who supported that, and our other 'discretionary wars' are criminals. Then consider that the people who were adults then, and had some complicity in those war crimes, seem (in most cases) to have escaped any consequences, or even benefited. OTOH, those of us who were too young to be guilty are now suffering the natural consequences of our nation's evil history ... the parents have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. I want to believe that those who seem to escape this life without suffering the consequences of their evil acts will be reborn to suffer, as, for instance, in the coming collapse and die-off. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Any generosity on the part of the government The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less 'theft-free' but they don't come close to covering the costs of our bloated US government. Worse, the political elites have made such an awful mess of things that huge numbers of people are impoverished and unemployed and NEED assistance. Worse still, this leads a majority of the electorate to vote for a government that promises to fill their rice bowl. I fear there is no solution except for this dystopia to collapse and the unsustainable population to crash. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 3:02 AM, Bill! wrote: when I said 'sincere student' I meant a person who is sincerely seeking relief from suffering. Thank you; I had wondered if that quotation about sincerity (in response to my query about what light some of these teachers had emitted) was a hint that it was a sign of insincerity to ask such questions. You note that I did not take any offense, if such were the case, but simply considered whether one who practices only for their own benefit, without interaction with teachers, sangha, or even other laypersons, /could/ be considered insincere. We seem to be in essential agreement, here: The person seeking relief is the only one who can judge whether he/she is really 'sincere' or not. and here as well: Not just EVERYTHING is zen as some seem to want to believe. I'm not saying that whatever others practice is wrong or ineffective, but I will say from time to time that what they describe is not zen - IMO... As I put it: Is this Zen? Who cares?! meaning no disrespect to the tradition that I revere enough to follow for decades, but only saying, that I can ACCEPT, without agreement, the view that some might have that I am not manifesting what THEY believe is Zen, but view the Way I am working out for myself to be appropriate for me. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle, You know your geography and neighborhoods there much better than I. Who knows where the teacher sometimes teaches. Do you know her full teaching schedule? We only know where she is based. The fact that she is at Melbourne, often, tickles me, too: one of my dearest friends and Dharma sisters practices there. ;-) Note that Subhana is also a psychiatrist: maybe she's really *needed* in money-bags-town!, or whatever it's called. As far as Mr. Kandinsky is concerned, it's only his writing that I found lackluster, not his Art ...as I've told you four times! Subhana is such an accomplished person!, and younger than I am. By 2 1/2 years. She's not even sixty, yet, Merle. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: no art..i cannot find any joe it would be on her site if it was so why are you knocking kandinsky?..i doubt if subhana's would match his master pieces... Â yes sydney..yes however..mosman is where the money bags lie..blacktown is packed with people...why not do a few sessions there...?...you do not know if people will listen unless you try..merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Yes, I agree Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 10:02 AM, R A Fonda wrote: On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Any generosity on the part of the government The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less 'theft-free' but they don't come close to covering the costs of our bloated US government. Worse, the political elites have made such an awful mess of things that huge numbers of people are impoverished and unemployed and NEED assistance. Worse still, this leads a majority of the electorate to vote for a government that promises to fill their rice bowl. I fear there is no solution except for this dystopia to collapse and the unsustainable population to crash. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. In a DEMOCRATIC society -- which India is -- a social contract among the people establishes a constitution and a government. The imposition of taxes and even taking of lands as eminent domain for social purposes is a function of Legislature. Such taking did not happen in the case of the lands that were given for occupation by the Untouchables, which you feel impressed by. I am also impressed by the donors' generosity (or motivation by guilt; or, worse, income- or real-estate-tax-avoidance incentive). But, now, I know that people directly connected with tax payments and takings often feel ripped-off, and say they do, but they forget in that instance about the social contract. And, I claim so do you when you write... ...TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT It's a small point, which I extract from your appreciative comment about a small piece of Subhana's teisho, but I think it betrays a mis-understanding of the social contract on your part, or else you are letting your personal anger about something take center-stage. Do you listen to a lot of pot-boiler AM radio in daytime in USA? Does hatred and lack of understanding of the social contract pollute all the *rest* of your politics, too? It's an important point, RAF. To consider. Not to expound upon here, however. You think you are an Individual, but in fact you are also a member of Society. All this leads back to Zen practice, you know, and -- we hope -- to Awakening! With wishes, --Joe - R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: Joe, I was very impressed by this: By the time Vinoba had reached the conference, two thousand acres had been given back to the poorest villagers. Inspired by Vinoba's work, Vimala also walked across India from east to west and north to south and eventually ten million acres of land was given back to the landless poor without a single hand from the bureaucracy. Two important factors here: The land was FREELY GIVEN, which is a true act of compassion The land was not TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT Too many people consider themselves compassionate because they are willing to empower the government to steal from some to give to others they consider more deserving. I concede that some people deserve to have assets confiscated because they stole from others. For instance, Jon Corzine stole some of my hard-earned retirement funds, but since he is a crony and fund-raiser for Obama, not one penny of his ill-gotten gains have been taken for the benefit of those he victimized; he remains a billionaire and has never even been charged with a crime. If I could take his money and distribute it to those from whom he stole, I would do so, but that would simply be justice. To feel so 'compassionate' toward the poor that I help to empower the government to steal money from productive people to give to others is neither justice nor compassion. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, To give you the Zen perspective on the matter you close with, trust me, there is NO such person (neither the they, nor me). I am not manifesting what THEY believe is Zen, but view the Way I am working out for myself to be appropriate for me. And yet, we practice. This is called daily life, daily practice. --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/11/2012 3:02 AM, Bill! wrote: when I said 'sincere student' I meant a person who is sincerely seeking relief from suffering. Thank you; I had wondered if that quotation about sincerity (in response to my query about what light some of these teachers had emitted) was a hint that it was a sign of insincerity to ask such questions. You note that I did not take any offense, if such were the case, but simply considered whether one who practices only for their own benefit, without interaction with teachers, sangha, or even other laypersons, /could/ be considered insincere. We seem to be in essential agreement, here: The person seeking relief is the only one who can judge whether he/she is really 'sincere' or not. and here as well: Not just EVERYTHING is zen as some seem to want to believe. I'm not saying that whatever others practice is wrong or ineffective, but I will say from time to time that what they describe is not zen - IMO... As I put it: Is this Zen? Who cares?! meaning no disrespect to the tradition that I revere enough to follow for decades, but only saying, that I can ACCEPT, without agreement, the view that some might have that I am not manifesting what THEY believe is Zen, but view the Way I am working out for myself to be appropriate for me. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. That is unsurprising, as most people accept the idea that if a MAJORITY of your fellow inhabitants of a territory agree to rob you, and divide the loot according to a democratic procedure that it is no longer a crime, as it would be if the recipients directly assaulted you on the street. Actually, I see it as WORSE, because so much of that loot no longer goes to the life needs of your fellow inhabitants, but is dissipated on WARS and the kleptocrat cronies of the political elites. I know that people directly connected with tax payments and takings often feel ripped-off, and say they do, Imagine that; and do you find that unenlightened of them? It's a small point, which I extract from your appreciative comment about a small piece of Subhana's teisho, but I think it betrays a mis-understanding of the social contract on your part I think it is a MAJOR point, but first let me comment on your innuendo that I lack the intellectual capacity to develop my own views of such matters and am influenced by a lot of pot-boiler AM radio in daytime in USA? I NEVER listen to radio or watch TV, but I do confess to having been influenced by/some/ of what Lysander Spooner wrote, among others who have given the social contract a lot deeper thought than you appear to have. Does hatred So I am a 'hater' because I want to dispose of my earnings according to my own priorities, which includes /personal/ acts of charity toward those I have the karma to encounter? and lack of understanding of the social contract see above pollute all the *rest* of your politics, too? Oh, absolutely: my feelings about personal freedom and government tyranny certainly do pollute my views on the social contract, but I don't really have any politics, as I despair of any improvement in the sociopolitical sphere (regarding it from the perspective of evolutionary psychology and seeing it as the manifestation of the population's genetic propensities and capacities) and only hope to leave my family able to survive the predicable collapse of this dystopia. It's an important point, RAF. Oh, I agree that it is important, but don't think there is anything that can be done to ameliorate it, except through personal acts of providence. You may recall that the Buddha said everything was unfolding as it must. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, Do I know how to elicit a response from the tender, or don't I? ;-) I'm glad we're done with that. When it comes to the social contract and all it contains, it is ineffectual (of you) to try to gang up on the majority when you are in the minority. But, keep trying; after all, that's how a majority is BUILT! Failing a new majority, there is Legal recourse for those who believe they have been offended. Feeling begrudged, alone, will not change things, except to further deteriorate the state of one's health and one's civility. Or, there may be better countries with better systems for you to move to. It may not be too late/soon! Merle likes Australia, I think. --Joe PS I *do* sometimes listen to US-daytime-AM-talk radio: I find it's good to know what tunes the devil is playing. Granted, it's a very difficult Yoga (to sit still for). R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/11/2012 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. That is unsurprising, as most people accept the idea that if a MAJORITY of your fellow inhabitants of a territory agree to rob you, and divide the loot according to a democratic procedure that it is no longer a crime, as it would be if the recipients directly assaulted you on the street. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is much different, controlled mainly by special interests for their own benefit with benefits to the rest of society only sufficient to quell revolt... Always has been such to greater or lesser degree and likely always will be... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: RAF, I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. In a DEMOCRATIC society -- which India is -- a social contract among the people establishes a constitution and a government. The imposition of taxes and even taking of lands as eminent domain for social purposes is a function of Legislature. Such taking did not happen in the case of the lands that were given for occupation by the Untouchables, which you feel impressed by. I am also impressed by the donors' generosity (or motivation by guilt; or, worse, income- or real-estate-tax-avoidance incentive). But, now, I know that people directly connected with tax payments and takings often feel ripped-off, and say they do, but they forget in that instance about the social contract. And, I claim so do you when you write... ...TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT It's a small point, which I extract from your appreciative comment about a small piece of Subhana's teisho, but I think it betrays a mis-understanding of the social contract on your part, or else you are letting your personal anger about something take center-stage. Do you listen to a lot of pot-boiler AM radio in daytime in USA? Does hatred and lack of understanding of the social contract pollute all the *rest* of your politics, too? It's an important point, RAF. To consider. Not to expound upon here, however. You think you are an Individual, but in fact you are also a member of Society. All this leads back to Zen practice, you know, and -- we hope -- to Awakening! With wishes, --Joe - R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: Joe, I was very impressed by this: By the time Vinoba had reached the conference, two thousand acres had been given back to the poorest villagers. Inspired by Vinoba's work, Vimala also walked across India from east to west and north to south and eventually ten million acres of land was given back to the landless poor without a single hand from the bureaucracy. Two important factors here: The land was FREELY GIVEN, which is a true act of compassion The land was not TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT Too many people consider themselves compassionate because they are willing to empower the government to steal from some to give to others they consider more deserving. I concede that some people deserve to have assets confiscated because they stole from others. For instance, Jon Corzine stole some of my hard-earned retirement funds, but since he is a crony and fund-raiser for Obama, not one penny of his ill-gotten gains have been taken for the benefit of those he victimized; he remains a billionaire and has never even been charged with a crime. If I could take his money and distribute it to those from whom he stole, I would do so, but that would simply be justice. To feel so 'compassionate' toward the poor that I help to empower the government to steal money from productive people to give to others is neither justice nor compassion.
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio, --Chris On Dec 11, 2012 8:52 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/11/2012 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. That is unsurprising, as most people accept the idea that if a MAJORITY of your fellow inhabitants of a territory agree to rob you, and divide the loot according to a democratic procedure that it is no longer a crime, as it would be if the recipients directly assaulted you on the street. Actually, I see it as WORSE, because so much of that loot no longer goes to the life needs of your fellow inhabitants, but is dissipated on WARS and the kleptocrat cronies of the political elites. I know that people directly connected with tax payments and takings often feel ripped-off, and say they do, Imagine that; and do you find that unenlightened of them? It's a small point, which I extract from your appreciative comment about a small piece of Subhana's teisho, but I think it betrays a mis-understanding of the social contract on your part I think it is a MAJOR point, but first let me comment on your innuendo that I lack the intellectual capacity to develop my own views of such matters and am influenced by a lot of pot-boiler AM radio in daytime in USA? I NEVER listen to radio or watch TV, but I do confess to having been influenced by* some* of what Lysander Spooner wrote, among others who have given the social contract a lot deeper thought than you appear to have. Does hatred So I am a 'hater' because I want to dispose of my earnings according to my own priorities, which includes *personal* acts of charity toward those I have the karma to encounter? and lack of understanding of the social contract see above pollute all the *rest* of your politics, too? Oh, absolutely: my feelings about personal freedom and government tyranny certainly do pollute my views on the social contract, but I don't really have any politics, as I despair of any improvement in the sociopolitical sphere (regarding it from the perspective of evolutionary psychology and seeing it as the manifestation of the population's genetic propensities and capacities) and only hope to leave my family able to survive the predicable collapse of this dystopia. It's an important point, RAF. Oh, I agree that it is important, but don't think there is anything that can be done to ameliorate it, except through personal acts of providence. You may recall that the Buddha said everything was unfolding as it must. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, Well, you're only half-right. I know that there is an ideal. And I know that the real never matches an ideal. And, that's why our (USA) Founders gave us a PROCESS. I don't believe in an ideal. Yet, we recognize one. And our process exists to help to keep us on track. Our Constitution and our changing body of Laws provide a structure. Even the Constitution itself is susceptible to amendment. In practice, there are very large meanderings from the ideal, always. And as the river zigs and zags, there is flood-insurance to give us some confidence that we will emerge from inundation, if we are inundated. What is the flood-insurance for you? --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is much different, controlled mainly by special interests for their own benefit with benefits to the rest of society only sufficient to quell revolt... Always has been such to greater or lesser degree and likely always will be... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio, Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
The truth is indescribable. But if the society is.sufficiently flexible as to avoid revolt, that seems pretty good according to historical standards. On Dec 11, 2012 10:00 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Joe, You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is much different, controlled mainly by special interests for their own benefit with benefits to the rest of society only sufficient to quell revolt... Always has been such to greater or lesser degree and likely always will be... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: RAF, I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. In a DEMOCRATIC society -- which India is -- a social contract among the people establishes a constitution and a government. The imposition of taxes and even taking of lands as eminent domain for social purposes is a function of Legislature. Such taking did not happen in the case of the lands that were given for occupation by the Untouchables, which you feel impressed by. I am also impressed by the donors' generosity (or motivation by guilt; or, worse, income- or real-estate-tax-avoidance incentive). But, now, I know that people directly connected with tax payments and takings often feel ripped-off, and say they do, but they forget in that instance about the social contract. And, I claim so do you when you write... ...TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT It's a small point, which I extract from your appreciative comment about a small piece of Subhana's teisho, but I think it betrays a mis-understanding of the social contract on your part, or else you are letting your personal anger about something take center-stage. Do you listen to a lot of pot-boiler AM radio in daytime in USA? Does hatred and lack of understanding of the social contract pollute all the *rest* of your politics, too? It's an important point, RAF. To consider. Not to expound upon here, however. You think you are an Individual, but in fact you are also a member of Society. All this leads back to Zen practice, you know, and -- we hope -- to Awakening! With wishes, --Joe - R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: Joe, I was very impressed by this: By the time Vinoba had reached the conference, two thousand acres had been given back to the poorest villagers. Inspired by Vinoba's work, Vimala also walked across India from east to west and north to south and eventually ten million acres of land was given back to the landless poor without a single hand from the bureaucracy. Two important factors here: The land was FREELY GIVEN, which is a true act of compassion The land was not TAKEN by the government, which is simply THEFT Too many people consider themselves compassionate because they are willing to empower the government to steal from some to give to others they consider more deserving. I concede that some people deserve to have assets confiscated because they stole from others. For instance, Jon Corzine stole some of my hard-earned retirement funds, but since he is a crony and fund-raiser for Obama, not one penny of his ill-gotten gains have been taken for the benefit of those he victimized; he remains a billionaire and has never even been charged with a crime. If I could take his money and distribute it to those from whom he stole, I would do so, but that would simply be justice. To feel so 'compassionate' toward the poor that I help to empower the government to steal money from productive people to give to others is neither justice nor compassion.
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Chris, I find this a very congenial response: On 12/11/2012 1:04 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? No doubt, but I found poverty and concerns about how to provide for my family to have been a much greater distraction. perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Such topics are important, not because we can solve or settle anything here (or elsewhere, for that matter) but rather because Joe, for instance, considers ones views on such matters to be indications of a person's spiritual 'state' ... I do too, but from a very different perspective. reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Indeed. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that It is only natural that you approve of a society that fills your rice-bowl; when/if you experience that social order 'sharing' what YOU have earned through doing something other people valued enough to PAY you for, then you may attain a different perspective. All the talk of 'sharing' obfuscates the fact that SOMEBODY had to give up whatever is given by society (and don't forget the waste that manifests itself as such 'side-effects' as wars and millions of people in jail) and the very people (such as Jon Corzine) who ought to have to give up ill-gotten wealth are the last to suffer such extractions. The great bulk of government is paid for by ordinary workers through hidden taxes such as inflation, fuel and sales taxes, and all that sort of thing. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
I certainly pay taxes, which I assume is what you mean by 'sharing'. I don't really care about the amount, tho I wish the process were simpler. I have had errors in my returns for like three of the last four years, causing a great deal of worry and confusion. as I said I don't really feel like I suffer to get the money. One of my elderly relatives lost his lifetime savings in the dot com bust. his response was to apologize to his wife, stop day trading, and resume his life work of veterinary medicine, on a part time basis. to me it seems he gave up on the idea of wealth as a path to happiness and resumed the experience of meaningful work as a path towards a fulfilling life. i hope to respond with comparable equanimity if I have a similar experience. Is there some other society you wish you'd been born into rather that the one you were? On Dec 11, 2012 10:35 AM, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: Chris, I find this a very congenial response: On 12/11/2012 1:04 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? No doubt, but I found poverty and concerns about how to provide for my family to have been a much greater distraction. perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Such topics are important, not because we can solve or settle anything here (or elsewhere, for that matter) but rather because Joe, for instance, considers ones views on such matters to be indications of a person's spiritual 'state' ... I do too, but from a very different perspective. reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Indeed. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that It is only natural that you approve of a society that fills your rice-bowl; when/if you experience that social order 'sharing' what YOU have earned through doing something other people valued enough to PAY you for, then you may attain a different perspective. All the talk of 'sharing' obfuscates the fact that SOMEBODY had to give up whatever is given by society (and don't forget the waste that manifests itself as such 'side-effects' as wars and millions of people in jail) and the very people (such as Jon Corzine) who ought to have to give up ill-gotten wealth are the last to suffer such extractions. The great bulk of government is paid for by ordinary workers through hidden taxes such as inflation, fuel and sales taxes, and all that sort of thing. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, Now, now. That's surely garbled. Give me a quote and let's see if we can show you how you misinterpreted it. --Joe R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: Such topics are important, not because we can solve or settle anything here (or elsewhere, for that matter) but rather because Joe, for instance, considers ones views on such matters to be indications of a person's spiritual 'state' ... I do too, but from a very different perspective. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 1:59 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is there some other society you wish you'd been born into rather that the one you were? Not the kind of thing I dwell on, but, since you ask, I consider it karma to have been born where/when I was and to have the opportunity to encounter both science and the dharma and to have had the capacity to appreciate both of them. I have been quite fortunate in many other respects as well, and if you think me dissatisfied with my circumstances you misunderstand me. That said, I foresee that the human prospect is grim and the fact that I wont have to live through it is another thing for which I am grateful. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, The process the founders set up has been long subverted Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Joe wrote: Edgar, Well, you're only half-right. I know that there is an ideal. And I know that the real never matches an ideal. And, that's why our (USA) Founders gave us a PROCESS. I don't believe in an ideal. Yet, we recognize one. And our process exists to help to keep us on track. Our Constitution and our changing body of Laws provide a structure. Even the Constitution itself is susceptible to amendment. In practice, there are very large meanderings from the ideal, always. And as the river zigs and zags, there is flood-insurance to give us some confidence that we will emerge from inundation, if we are inundated. What is the flood-insurance for you? --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is much different, controlled mainly by special interests for their own benefit with benefits to the rest of society only sufficient to quell revolt... Always has been such to greater or lesser degree and likely always will be...
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio, Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Of course current science predicts rather grim things long term anyways - difficult to envision any non-reversible computation lasting more than a hundred trillion years or so from now. As the poster in my mom's laundry room said: Look to this day, for it is life, the very life of life. And it seems like you might grudgingly agree that this is the best of all possible worlds. Do you really think your kids and grand kids will have less wonder, joy and love than you have enjoyed? Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 11, 2012, at 11:32, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: On 12/11/2012 1:59 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Is there some other society you wish you'd been born into rather that the one you were? Not the kind of thing I dwell on, but, since you ask, I consider it karma to have been born where/when I was and to have the opportunity to encounter both science and the dharma and to have had the capacity to appreciate both of them. I have been quite fortunate in many other respects as well, and if you think me dissatisfied with my circumstances you misunderstand me. That said, I foresee that the human prospect is grim and the fact that I wont have to live through it is another thing for which I am grateful. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 2:55 PM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: Of course current science predicts rather grim things long term anyways - difficult to envision any non-reversible computation lasting more than a hundred trillion years or so from now. Chris, I am /glad/ you think the way you do. As the poster in my mom's laundry room said: Look to this day, for it is life, the very life of life. True enough. If you think that is ALL there is to it, see above comment. And it seems like you might grudgingly agree that this is the best of all possible worlds. For /US/ ... why else would we /be here now/? RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Deleting all the agreement and replying to the rest . . . Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone On Dec 11, 2012, at 12:19, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: As the poster in my mom's laundry room said: Look to this day, for it is life, the very life of life. True enough. If you think that is ALL there is to it, see above comment. That is all I see or experience. Thoughts, eh, you know how that is. And it seems like you might grudgingly agree that this is the best of all possible worlds. For US ... why else would we be here now? A good koan. Why are we here now? Puzzling over the absurdity of it, i have no choice but laughingly to see the here now! And then turn the (electric) timer off and put the pasta into the boiling water. I do expect my offspring and their friends and co-journeyers to have a similar mixed bag of good and ill in their moments as I find in my moments. It, this fascinating and fundamentally marvelous experience, is why I enthusiastically embraced the urge to procreate. RAF
[Zen] The Maker - YouTube
entertainment...merle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDXOioU_OKM
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
australia..has medicare... universal health insurance. for starters..at moment there is a strong socialistic outlook government based on caring and sharing... but soon to be rolled by a right wing fanatical Catholic liberal...with an eye to the throne... and a mind to getting back to the business of helping the rich evade taxes... sucks the little people in with his one line mantras... i'll do it right for you... where do i migrate to when the lunatic that he is... get's his hands on the wheel to steer the good ship lollypop back to the land of greed...?. .merle RAF, Do I know how to elicit a response from the tender, or don't I? ;-) I'm glad we're done with that. When it comes to the social contract and all it contains, it is ineffectual (of you) to try to gang up on the majority when you are in the minority. But, keep trying; after all, that's how a majority is BUILT! Failing a new majority, there is Legal recourse for those who believe they have been offended. Feeling begrudged, alone, will not change things, except to further deteriorate the state of one's health and one's civility. Or, there may be better countries with better systems for you to move to. It may not be too late/soon! Merle likes Australia, I think. --Joe PS I *do* sometimes listen to US-daytime-AM-talk radio: I find it's good to know what tunes the devil is playing. Granted, it's a very difficult Yoga (to sit still for). R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/11/2012 11:01 AM, Joe wrote: I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic. That is unsurprising, as most people accept the idea that if a MAJORITY of your fellow inhabitants of a territory agree to rob you, and divide the loot according to a democratic procedure that it is no longer a crime, as it would be if the recipients directly assaulted you on the street. [snip]
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
joe..you seem to be enthralled with her...yet you have never met her... easy to write and tell to all how beautiful we are how righteous, how learned,..blah blah...face to face tells another story... ok i'll send her an email... we will see... so you think being a head shrink makes her more desirable as a person of quality..i think not...i read r.d. laing when i was 20 plus..there are head shrinks and head shrinks...careful what you wish for.. .i found kandinsky u beaut...writings and all...try mondrian and klee's writings..that'll be the test...but it's okay joe each to his own... send me info on stars and i'll happily say no it's all too much... love ain't in cyber space honey...meet subhana..then let us talk again.. .she has a pic of her on website that looks years younger..she might be a big fat lard lump..who knows..and where is all her art?..yes good question ..merle you are such a cynic..no i am not...just being a tad realistic... so the question remains will she the holy one step down from her golden throne to reply to me... the nobodies email... yes that is the question... merle Merle, You know your geography and neighborhoods there much better than I. Who knows where the teacher sometimes teaches. Do you know her full teaching schedule? We only know where she is based. The fact that she is at Melbourne, often, tickles me, too: one of my dearest friends and Dharma sisters practices there. ;-) Note that Subhana is also a psychiatrist: maybe she's really *needed* in money-bags-town!, or whatever it's called. As far as Mr. Kandinsky is concerned, it's only his writing that I found lackluster, not his Art ...as I've told you four times! Subhana is such an accomplished person!, and younger than I am. By 2 1/2 years. She's not even sixty, yet, Merle. --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: no art..i cannot find any joe it would be on her site if it was so why are you knocking kandinsky?..i doubt if subhana's would match his master pieces... Â yes sydney..yes however..mosman is where the money bags lie..blacktown is packed with people...why not do a few sessions there...?...you do not know if people will listen unless you try..merle
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
edgar..you betcha...they sure need buddha..the poor...but not to be bamboozled and manipulated...but to be set free... the land of money making and folk posing as holy folk..why do they hover in those rich areas? good works in the name of buddha and christ must be freely given merle Joe, and Merle, More PC nonsense Joe. There are greater population densities in all the slums of the world than in elite wealthy neighborhoods. AND they need Buddhist teaching a lot more than the very well off. I agree with Merle here. Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a profit and become well known? Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 11:04 PM, Joe wrote: Merle, Please don't let your prejudices blacken your heart toward Subhana Barzaghi, Roshi. She lives in Sydney because it's a high population center, and *THERE ARE PEOPLE* there WHO WANT TO *LEARN*. If she lived at the foot of your hill, instead, who the hell would she have to teach? Only YOU!? ;-) You see? Don't be so silly; please. Trust me. She is a wonderful radical. You are a Tory by comparison. I doubt you'd last ten seconds under her eye, or in her compassionate care. ;-) And, ...I know you would *LOVE* her. Right, not much of her art on her site at present. What happened? Used to be tons. Just Google her full name, and maybe add art to the string. You may find her paintings depicted elsewhere. Her art is in many books; some of them are Zen books. She could maybe have taught Mister Kandinsky something about The Spiritual in Art. Or, certainly inspired him, at least in his writing, where it seems to me it would have helped. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: i check it out...yes i have googled her beforethank you for your interest .not much of her art there... will i send her a message?.. mmm i am concerned she bases herself in mosman sydney.. very expensive upper crust area... i believe we need to reach out to the poor and needy. to do the work of buddha and christ.. .and following in their paths we discard the need to charge money.. to give is to give freely. .to love is to love wholeheartedly.. to care is to care without strings attached. .you give till you can give no more and then you give again. .that is the path to enlightenment.. let the teacher come to the mountain top. then we will see... have a wise and precious day.. for you will not see this day again.
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
agreed...and all the bullshit hangers on can go with them that or the guillotine!...let's start a revolution!...merle Mike, Couldn't agree more. All the so called 'royal's should be put to work in the fields! Let them do some real work for a change! They are the biggest, most expensive social parasites of all Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, mike brown wrote: the biggest welfare cheats are the queen.. and her hangers on.. I saw a great quote on Facebook: `So Kate Middleton is pregnant.. I thought it was government policy to discourage those who don`t work to have children`. Awesome! Mike --- On Tue, 11/12/12, Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 11 December, 2012, 14:35 yes mike..spot on...that is exactly how it is.. .however the old story still holds a punch..those dam dole bludgers... lazy pricks...go get a job.. makes those who are safe and secure so so self righteous..i can do it why cannot you? . the biggest welfare cheats are the queen of england and her hangers on... where oh where is the guillotine?...merle Comrade RAF, I`d say the social parasites are very few in number (at least on the lower end of the economic scale). People are born into ghettoes and slums thru no fault of their own. Like famine, these places exist because of the economic system we have inherited. It`s easy for those who have inherited wealth, or who have had lucky breaks, to exhort others to `pull themselves up by their bootstraps`. Let`s also not forget that governments often squash attempts at self sufficiency in communes etc. and a pool of unemployed is great for the capitalist class to keep wages low. Bother Mike --- On Tue, 11/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 11 December, 2012, 14:27 On 12/10/2012 9:33 PM, Joe wrote: those old places lived on the handouts and donations of others, already!, themselves!, and they had to be very, very careful about who they let in. Very true, but even today, let us imagine merle walking up to a modern American zen center and telling them that her superior vision of compassion obliges them to become homeless shelters, giving needy people a thousand days of food and shelter, or ten days, or even one day. One could hardly ask for a better example of how some people confuse higher consciousness with their self-righteous generosity with other people's money. I have no problem with them demonstrating compassion by giving their assets away ... I wonder how many homeless people she has living in HER 'squat'? The problem is that they band together to empower politicians to steal from the productive, and the political elites then share the loot with their kleptocrat allies or waste it on wars, or pay off their client electorates such as the government 'workers' and very little gets spent on the needy, many of whom, unfortunately, were social parasites rather than people who just had some bad luck. However, government mismanagement (including taking so much from the productive workers and investors) has now crippled the economy, so that there really ARE a lot of people who would LIKE to work, but there just aren't any jobs for them. Moreover, there are about the same number of unemployed American citizens as there are illegal immigrants, and people who share merle's views are SO compassionate toward those illegal immigrants that they don't stop to think how cruel it is for American workers to lose their homes because 'compassion' precludes reserving jobs for our own citizens. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, those of us too young to be guilty.. How does that line above fit in with the genetic propensity to drop nuclear bombs on Japan (or at least wage war)? Mike --- On Wed, 12/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote: From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, 12 December, 2012, 1:48 On 12/11/2012 5:49 AM, mike brown wrote: what does that say about the American people/culture and the dropping of the atomic bomb on those 2 civilian populated cities? First, let me say that I believe the US DROVE the Japanese into that war, and that the American people who supported that, and our other 'discretionary wars' are criminals. Then consider that the people who were adults then, and had some complicity in those war crimes, seem (in most cases) to have escaped any consequences, or even benefited. OTOH, those of us who were too young to be guilty are now suffering the natural consequences of our nation's evil history ... the parents have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge. I want to believe that those who seem to escape this life without suffering the consequences of their evil acts will be reborn to suffer, as, for instance, in the coming collapse and die-off. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle, Will you let us know what you get into after being in touch with Subhana? She may have some suggestions about Zen practice, or some observations about art and zen which would interest people, here. She's in the line that various teachers here are in, including our late Pat Hawk Roshi, and she has often been to Tucson. Most recently there was a meeting of all the Diamond Sangha Teachers Circle here, while our teacher Pat was still living, and he hosted the 25 or so of them at his retreat just north of town, bordering the Saguaro National Monument West, at Picture Rocks. Beautiful petroglyphs there -- not by painting, as in Australia, but by pounding, using a rock tool to abrade the mountain by pummeling. The Hohokam tribe, about 800 years ago. I have no special affinity for psychiatrists, but her profession closely exercises her concern for people thereby, and there-through, as does her zen teaching and her artwork. And, she expresses herself well in words, and art. I have always had respect for people in the helping-professions, maybe because mine is far from that. Unless you call keeping the planet safe from the largest catastrophic ecological disaster -- impact of a large asteroid or comet -- helping. But the Yoga teaching and introductory meditation instruction and dharma teaching is more along the lines of immediate helping, nowadays, for me, although I do not practice medicine or social work. Again, I think Kandinsky's art is great. No need to recommend other painters I'm already very well familiar with, and I am not dissatisfied in any way by Mr. K. I think you might love Subhana because she is from your hemisphere, and country, teaches Zen, and she paints. And, any other reason you may find. ;-) She is a very close associate of two teachers I've practiced with in Arizona, the late Pat Hawk Roshi, and John Tarrant Roshi, and those two teachers often told glowing stories about her. I don't mind at all if you mention this to her, although I don't see why to do so, unless just to tell her that it was from a zen astronomer in Tucson from whom you received word that there's a Zen-teacher Painter in Sydney (and Melbourne). Thanks for your trust!, --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..you seem to be enthralled with her...yet you have never met her... easy to write and tell to all how beautiful we are how righteous, how learned,..blah blah...face to face tells another story... ok i'll send her an email... we will see... Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
On 12/11/2012 7:23 PM, mike brown wrote: those of us too young to be guilty.. How does that line above fit in with the genetic propensity to drop nuclear bombs on Japan (or at least wage war)? Short answer: a baby already has genetic propensities, but has not had time to manifest many of them; it has not done anything evil ... yet. I was just saying that those of us who were too young to support the political warmakers had no responsibility for their nuclear atrocities, yet we are living in a nation diminished by that and so many other evil acts. Of course, realistically, individual citizens could do little to stop the elites, but might NOT, for instance, have volunteered to fight. Nor is it likely the Japanese would have refrained from using nukes on us if they had been able to; it seems to me they were only restrained by capacity, rather than propensity, so I am not saying Americans were especially evil, but that they had the national capacity to wage imperialistic war, and were attracted to/supportive of the sort of political elites who were inclined to use that power. All human populations have the propensity to wage war, though it /does /seem to be more highly expressed in some ethnies and cultures. The thing that has made America such a menace is the national economic-industrial- resource (rather than genetic) capacity to sustain technological warfare. I did not mean to imply that the American population had a particularly war-like genetic propensity, but, rather, that they do not have any particular social /virtues/ that would make them resistant to the manipulation of their political elites. Right off hand I can't think of /any/ ethny that /has/ resisted the imperialistic ambitions of the political power-seekers. We humans come from ancestors who were selected /for/ fitness competition rather than pacifism. On the other hand we were also selected for cooperation, so we have a propensity to cooperate in waging war. RAF
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, You wrote: Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a profit and become well known? One of my points in this discussion is that YOU cannot know the motives of someone else. You may certainly speculate on them, but only they know their motives - if indeed they have any. If you have a motive or goal of being compassionate you have already missed the mark. True compassion (like all other things associated with zen practice) are done without a motive. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, and Merle, More PC nonsense Joe. There are greater population densities in all the slums of the world than in elite wealthy neighborhoods. AND they need Buddhist teaching a lot more than the very well off. I agree with Merle here. Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a profit and become well known? Edgar On Dec 10, 2012, at 11:04 PM, Joe wrote: Merle, Please don't let your prejudices blacken your heart toward Subhana Barzaghi, Roshi. She lives in Sydney because it's a high population center, and *THERE ARE PEOPLE* there WHO WANT TO *LEARN*. If she lived at the foot of your hill, instead, who the hell would she have to teach? Only YOU!? ;-) You see? Don't be so silly; please. Trust me. She is a wonderful radical. You are a Tory by comparison. I doubt you'd last ten seconds under her eye, or in her compassionate care. ;-) And, ...I know you would *LOVE* her. Right, not much of her art on her site at present. What happened? Used to be tons. Just Google her full name, and maybe add art to the string. You may find her paintings depicted elsewhere. Her art is in many books; some of them are Zen books. She could maybe have taught Mister Kandinsky something about The Spiritual in Art. Or, certainly inspired him, at least in his writing, where it seems to me it would have helped. ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: i check it out...yes i have googled her beforethank you for your interest .not much of her art there... will i send her a message?.. mmm i am concerned she bases herself in mosman sydney.. very expensive upper crust area... i believe we need to reach out to the poor and needy. to do the work of buddha and christ.. .and following in their paths we discard the need to charge money.. to give is to give freely. .to love is to love wholeheartedly.. to care is to care without strings attached. .you give till you can give no more and then you give again. .that is the path to enlightenment.. let the teacher come to the mountain top. then we will see... have a wise and precious day.. for you will not see this day again. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
RAF, You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger. If you are, get over it and take heed of a stanza from a song by Leonard Cohen: It's coming from the sorrow in the street, the holy places where the races meet; from the homicidal bitchin' that goes down in every kitchen to determine who will serve and who will eat. From the wells of disappointment where the women kneel to pray for the grace of God in the desert here and the desert far away: Democracy is coming to the U.S.A. - Democracy by Leonard Cohen That song is about democracy, not plutocracy... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Any generosity on the part of the government The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less 'theft-free' but they don't come close to covering the costs of our bloated US government. Worse, the political elites have made such an awful mess of things that huge numbers of people are impoverished and unemployed and NEED assistance. Worse still, this leads a majority of the electorate to vote for a government that promises to fill their rice bowl. I fear there is no solution except for this dystopia to collapse and the unsustainable population to crash. RAF Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Joe, Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it without their consent is an even more egregious attachment... Edgar On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote: Chris, The question itself speaks volumes. Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent. I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration for and appreciation of others' future stewardship. I think of the Seven Generations planning of actions taken by certain Native American tribal councils, the making of decisions with a concern and consideration for how planned actions, if executed, might effect even the seventh following generation of people and culture after the elders' actions. Such planning probably could not have taken into account the arrival of Europeans in America, and I don't know if the Seven Generations principle remains in play on Native Reservations to this day. --Joe - Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the mind's freedom? It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax policy here? Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that reasonable people do disagree about these issues. Personally I am grateful to have been born into a society that believes in vaccination public schools voting research moon missions and the like. the society finds it sensible to pay me for tasks which are enjoyable and allow me to learn and to master myself, and that seems fine. I didn't create the society nor more than a bit of its wealth, so I don't feel like much more than a temporary steward of the assets I control. I do know not everyone shares such a perspective, and there's no profit in arguing. I speak to offer the lurkers the data that the idea of capitalism without a fixed idea of a personal self can take many forms. Yours in praeteritio, Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Bill!, I heard a funny story about Keynes. He was at an international conference once on Economics -- what else? or maybe it was Keynesian Economics -- and he was famous by then, and everybody knew Keynesian Economics. He talked with his wife by phone one night during the conference, and she asked him how it was going. He had to tell her: Well, dear, there are 35 Keynesians here, and I find that I am the only non-Keynesian! --Joe PS (but I really don't know how his own thinking evolved over his rather short lifetime). Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of Keynesian economics and continue to move it closer and closer to socialism. But maybe someday we can actually aspire to communism...we can only hope. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
Merle, You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin? Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
good one billmerle RAF, You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger. If you are, get over it and take heed of a stanza from a song by Leonard Cohen: It's coming from the sorrow in the street, the holy places where the races meet; from the homicidal bitchin' that goes down in every kitchen to determine who will serve and who will eat. From the wells of disappointment where the women kneel to pray for the grace of God in the desert here and the desert far away: Democracy is coming to the U.S.A. - Democracy by Leonard Cohen That song is about democracy, not plutocracy... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote: On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote: Any generosity on the part of the government The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less 'theft-free' but they don't come close to covering the costs of our bloated US government. Worse, the political elites have made such an awful mess of things that huge numbers of people are impoverished and unemployed and NEED assistance. Worse still, this leads a majority of the electorate to vote for a government that promises to fill their rice bowl. I fear there is no solution except for this dystopia to collapse and the unsustainable population to crash. RAF
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
joe..where is his grin?? merle Merle, You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin? Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-) --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle Bill! wrote: Edgar, Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system socialism is the best system we can strive for. [snip]
[Zen] Fw: Chomsky: 'Right To Work' more correctly 'right to be exploited'
CHOMSKY: 'RIGHT TO WORK' MORE CORRECTLY 'RIGHT TO BE EXPLOITED' - Liberty Underground News reports: The ruling Forces of Greed (FOG) have successfully passed a bill in Michigan to make the state a ˘right to work˙ state, even as masses of working class people were pepper sprayed by police for protesting the bill. The euphemism ˘right to work˙ has been more correctly identified as ╢the right to be exploitedâ•˙ by Noam Chomsky. It is particularly distressing to see this happen in Michigan, where working class protesters died and were injured standing up to goons hired by the ruling FOG, in order to create strong unions such as the United Auto Workers. ˙Right to work˙ laws allow workers to opt out of unions, thereby destroying solidarity, the only power unions have. Those workers who opt out enjoy the benefits of union membership without paying the dues, eventually causing the union to become a disunion, too weak to stand up to the ruling FOG, the transnational investors and transnational corporations that don't give a damn about this country or its people other than what they can steal after shipping out our jobs, polluting our environment, and bribing our elections for control.ˇ Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein
Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion and zen
joe...yes joe i will send you the email before i forward it to her..okay..you are kind indeed to point me to this direction... with christmas coming...time is tight..spent 2 hours weeding in garden...my zen activity..in motion meditation..love weeding began it as a child... and so good for you...what have i done today of worth..rang a friend who is struggling to come to terms with his health...they cannot pin point what is wrong..though blood tests reveal something is a miss...he let himself go to seed..retired at 40 from social worker...to sit and eat..and thinking he had only a mind forgot his body..the temple..and thus grew into a fat lard lump..then had a heart attack..now he cares for body in mid 60;s..too late maybe... we will see..take it easy joe...i was a helper..i was an art teacher..my aim was to bring out what was already there..to encourage the soul to fly freely... merle Merle, Will you let us know what you get into after being in touch with Subhana? She may have some suggestions about Zen practice, or some observations about art and zen which would interest people, here. She's in the line that various teachers here are in, including our late Pat Hawk Roshi, and she has often been to Tucson. Most recently there was a meeting of all the Diamond Sangha Teachers Circle here, while our teacher Pat was still living, and he hosted the 25 or so of them at his retreat just north of town, bordering the Saguaro National Monument West, at Picture Rocks. Beautiful petroglyphs there -- not by painting, as in Australia, but by pounding, using a rock tool to abrade the mountain by pummeling. The Hohokam tribe, about 800 years ago. I have no special affinity for psychiatrists, but her profession closely exercises her concern for people thereby, and there-through, as does her zen teaching and her artwork. And, she expresses herself well in words, and art. I have always had respect for people in the helping-professions, maybe because mine is far from that. Unless you call keeping the planet safe from the largest catastrophic ecological disaster -- impact of a large asteroid or comet -- helping. But the Yoga teaching and introductory meditation instruction and dharma teaching is more along the lines of immediate helping, nowadays, for me, although I do not practice medicine or social work. Again, I think Kandinsky's art is great. No need to recommend other painters I'm already very well familiar with, and I am not dissatisfied in any way by Mr. K. I think you might love Subhana because she is from your hemisphere, and country, teaches Zen, and she paints. And, any other reason you may find. ;-) She is a very close associate of two teachers I've practiced with in Arizona, the late Pat Hawk Roshi, and John Tarrant Roshi, and those two teachers often told glowing stories about her. I don't mind at all if you mention this to her, although I don't see why to do so, unless just to tell her that it was from a zen astronomer in Tucson from whom you received word that there's a Zen-teacher Painter in Sydney (and Melbourne). Thanks for your trust!, --Joe Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: joe..you seem to be enthralled with her...yet you have never met her... easy to write and tell to all how beautiful we are how righteous, how learned,..blah blah...face to face tells another story... ok i'll send her an email... we will see...
[Zen] Fw: http://www.thewaysidechapel.com/
joe..here is an example of the good shepherd at work..brilliant!..no strings attached..help for the needy..merle http://www.thewaysidechapel.com/
[Zen] Re: Just Enough Faith Volunteers - dedicated to maintaining the true meaning of SERVING the Homeless and others in need.
again joe..no strings attached.. no holy than thou..no need for why what must be done is done with a good heart... all the work of the good shepherd... as they say too much navel gazing can bring about sterility of enlightenment. .and the old story emerges...the caterpillar with a 100 legs..he forgot which leg to move first so he became was rooted to the spot forever more... never knowing he could move action speaks louder than words.. the good shepherd is out their doing the work of christ and buddha without signalling..look at me look at me...look i am enlightened and radiant like a sunbeam true sunbeams radiate light through good deeds.. that is the way..that is the only path to enlightenment.. to do and be good works... enjoy your day.. for it will not pass your way again as such.. merle http://www.jefvolunteers.org/index.html
