RAF,
You raise a lot of questions here. I'll try to answer in a general way rather
than going through them one by one.
IMO...
All judgement and classifications are from YOUR point-of-view. So when I said
'sincere student' I meant a person who is sincerely seeking relief from
suffering.
Joe has expressed below my understanding of inca. It is a permission to teach,
and does imply that the recipient both wants to and is able (in the opinion of
his teacher)to teach.
...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Joe desert_woodworker@... wrote:
RAF,
and what did they or their
RAF,
If cultures manifest the genetic propensities and capacities of their
demography, then what does that say about the American people/culture and the
dropping of the atomic bomb on those 2 civilian populated cities?
Mike
--- On Tue, 11/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote:
From: R A
Joe,
Yes, that's right. Historically most monks and masters have all been beggars
depending on food donated by working people
Edgar
On Dec 10, 2012, at 9:33 PM, Joe wrote:
Merle,
Historically, those old places lived on the handouts and donations of others,
already!, themselves!,
RAF,
Yes, there was a horrible story on the news just yesterday of parents down in
W. Virginia encouraging their kids to fail their school classes so they could
continue to claim they were 'disabled' and collect $500/month disability
payments on their kids...
As you say, generosity towards
Mike,
Couldn't agree more. All the so called 'royal's should be put to work in the
fields! Let them do some real work for a change!
They are the biggest, most expensive social parasites of all
Edgar
On Dec 10, 2012, at 10:46 PM, mike brown wrote:
the biggest welfare cheats are the
Joe, and Merle,
More PC nonsense Joe. There are greater population densities in all the slums
of the world than in elite wealthy neighborhoods.
AND they need Buddhist teaching a lot more than the very well off.
I agree with Merle here. Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a
profit
Joe,
I was very impressed by this:
By the time Vinoba had reached the conference, two thousand acres had
been given back to the poorest villagers. Inspired by Vinoba's work,
Vimala also walked across India from east to west and north to south and
eventually ten million acres of land was
On 12/11/2012 5:49 AM, mike brown wrote:
what does that say about the American people/culture and the dropping
of the atomic bomb on those 2 civilian populated cities?
First, let me say that I believe the US DROVE the Japanese into that
war, and that the American people who supported that,
On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Any generosity on the part of the government
The main problem with government generosity is that the government
doesn't HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from someone. Now
some user fees, and resource extraction taxes, etc... are more or less
On 12/11/2012 3:02 AM, Bill! wrote:
when I said 'sincere student' I meant a person who is sincerely
seeking relief from suffering.
Thank you; I had wondered if that quotation about sincerity (in response
to my query about what light some of these teachers had emitted) was a
hint that it was
Merle,
You know your geography and neighborhoods there much better than I. Who knows
where the teacher sometimes teaches. Do you know her full teaching schedule?
We only know where she is based. The fact that she is at Melbourne, often,
tickles me, too: one of my dearest friends and Dharma
Yes, I agree
Edgar
On Dec 11, 2012, at 10:02 AM, R A Fonda wrote:
On 12/11/2012 8:51 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Any generosity on the part of the government
The main problem with government generosity is that the government doesn't
HAVE anything to give that it did not TAKE from
RAF,
I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic.
In a DEMOCRATIC society -- which India is -- a social contract among the people
establishes a constitution and a government. The imposition of taxes and even
taking of lands as eminent domain for social purposes is a function
RAF,
To give you the Zen perspective on the matter you close with, trust me, there
is NO such person (neither the they, nor me).
I am not manifesting what THEY believe is Zen, but view the Way I am working
out for myself to be appropriate for me.
And yet, we practice. This is called daily
On 12/11/2012 11:01 AM, Joe wrote:
I disagree with your simply statement. I find it simplistic.
That is unsurprising, as most people accept the idea that if a MAJORITY
of your fellow inhabitants of a territory agree to rob you, and divide
the loot according to a democratic procedure that it
RAF,
Do I know how to elicit a response from the tender, or don't I? ;-)
I'm glad we're done with that.
When it comes to the social contract and all it contains, it is ineffectual (of
you) to try to gang up on the majority when you are in the minority. But, keep
trying; after all, that's
Joe,
You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is much
different, controlled mainly by special interests for their own benefit with
benefits to the rest of society only sufficient to quell revolt...
Always has been such to greater or lesser degree and likely
Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the
mind's freedom?
It looks to me like it is, but perhaps we shouldn't argue politics and tax
policy here?
Rather than share my partisan arguments, let me simply state that
reasonable people do disagree about these issues.
Edgar,
Well, you're only half-right.
I know that there is an ideal. And I know that the real never matches an
ideal. And, that's why our (USA) Founders gave us a PROCESS.
I don't believe in an ideal. Yet, we recognize one. And our process exists
to help to keep us on track. Our
Chris,
The question itself speaks volumes.
Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance to the
mind's freedom?
Well done! It is certainly on-topic, and is eloquent.
I'm impressed by planning and decision-making that's guided by consideration
for and appreciation of
The truth is indescribable.
But if the society is.sufficiently flexible as to avoid revolt, that seems
pretty good according to historical standards.
On Dec 11, 2012 10:00 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote:
Joe,
You believe in an idealized and rather naive view of society. The truth is
Chris,
I find this a very congenial response:
On 12/11/2012 1:04 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
Can one's belief in personal ownership be an attachment, a hindrance
to the mind's freedom?
No doubt, but I found poverty and concerns about how to provide for my
family to have been a much
I certainly pay taxes, which I assume is what you mean by 'sharing'. I
don't really care about the amount, tho I wish the process were simpler. I
have had errors in my returns for like three of the last four years,
causing a great deal of worry and confusion. as I said I don't really feel
like I
RAF,
Now, now. That's surely garbled. Give me a quote and let's see if we can show
you how you misinterpreted it.
--Joe
R A Fonda rafonda@... wrote:
Such topics are important, not because we can solve or settle anything
here (or elsewhere, for that matter) but rather because Joe, for
On 12/11/2012 1:59 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:
Is there some other society you wish you'd been born into rather that
the one you were?
Not the kind of thing I dwell on, but, since you ask, I consider it
karma to have been born where/when I was and to have the opportunity to
encounter both
Joe,
The process the founders set up has been long subverted
Edgar
On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Joe wrote:
Edgar,
Well, you're only half-right.
I know that there is an ideal. And I know that the real never matches an
ideal. And, that's why our (USA) Founders gave us a PROCESS.
Joe,
Perhaps, but the belief in taking other people's property and redistributing it
without their consent is an even more egregious attachment...
Edgar
On Dec 11, 2012, at 1:24 PM, Joe wrote:
Chris,
The question itself speaks volumes.
Can one's belief in personal ownership be an
Of course current science predicts rather grim things long term anyways -
difficult to envision any non-reversible computation lasting more than a
hundred trillion years or so from now.
As the poster in my mom's laundry room said: Look to this day, for it is life,
the very life of life.
On 12/11/2012 2:55 PM, ChrisAustinLane wrote:
Of course current science predicts rather grim things long term
anyways - difficult to envision any non-reversible computation lasting
more than a hundred trillion years or so from now.
Chris, I am /glad/ you think the way you do.
As the poster
Deleting all the agreement and replying to the rest . . .
Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone
On Dec 11, 2012, at 12:19, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote:
As the poster in my mom's laundry room said: Look to this day, for it is
life, the very life of life.
True enough.
entertainment...merle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDXOioU_OKM
australia..has medicare... universal health insurance. for starters..at moment
there is a strong socialistic outlook government based on caring and
sharing...
but soon to be rolled by a right wing fanatical Catholic liberal...with an eye
to the throne...
and a mind to getting back to the
joe..you seem to be enthralled with her...yet you have never met her...
easy to write and tell to all how beautiful we are how righteous, how
learned,..blah blah...face to face tells another story...
ok i'll send her an email... we will see...
so you think being a head shrink makes her more
edgar..you betcha...they sure need buddha..the poor...but not to be bamboozled
and manipulated...but to be set free...
the land of money making and folk posing as holy folk..why do they hover in
those rich areas?
good works in the name of buddha and christ must be freely given
merle
agreed...and all the bullshit hangers on can go with them that or the
guillotine!...let's start a revolution!...merle
Mike,
Couldn't agree more. All the so called 'royal's should be put to work in the
fields! Let them do some real work for a change!
They are the biggest, most
RAF,
those of us too young to be guilty..
How does that line above fit in with the genetic propensity to drop nuclear
bombs on Japan (or at least wage war)?
Mike
--- On Wed, 12/12/12, R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com wrote:
From: R A Fonda rafo...@frontier.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Compassion
Merle,
Will you let us know what you get into after being in touch with Subhana? She
may have some suggestions about Zen practice, or some observations about art
and zen which would interest people, here.
She's in the line that various teachers here are in, including our late Pat
Hawk Roshi,
On 12/11/2012 7:23 PM, mike brown wrote:
those of us too young to be guilty..
How does that line above fit in with the genetic propensity to drop
nuclear bombs on Japan (or at least wage war)?
Short answer: a baby already has genetic propensities, but has not had
time to manifest many of
Edgar,
You wrote:
Is it true compassion or more a desire to make a profit and become well known?
One of my points in this discussion is that YOU cannot know the motives of
someone else. You may certainly speculate on them, but only they know their
motives - if indeed they have any.
If you
RAF,
You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger.
If you are, get over it and take heed of a stanza from a song by Leonard Cohen:
It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to
Edgar,
Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic economic system
socialism is the best system we can strive for. Right now the best we can do
is try to restrain and regulate our native capitalism with wealth
redistribution tactics as are employed by our current form of
Bill!,
I heard a funny story about Keynes. He was at an international conference once
on Economics -- what else? or maybe it was Keynesian Economics -- and he was
famous by then, and everybody knew Keynesian Economics. He talked with his
wife by phone one night during the conference, and
Merle,
You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin?
Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-)
--Joe
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle
Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Until we as a society can successfully establish a communistic
good one billmerle
RAF,
You're beginning to sound like a sour grapes Tea Bagger.
If you are, get over it and take heed of a stanza from a song by Leonard Cohen:
It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
joe..where is his grin?? merle
Merle,
You mean you don't see Bill!'s sly ironic grin?
Or, maybe I don't see yours! ;-)
--Joe
Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:
bill good one...we see common ground here!..merle
Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Until we as a society
CHOMSKY: 'RIGHT TO WORK' MORE CORRECTLY 'RIGHT TO BE EXPLOITED' -
Liberty Underground News reports:
The ruling Forces of Greed (FOG) have successfully passed a bill in Michigan
to make the state a ˘right to work˙ state, even as masses of working class
people were
joe...yes joe i will send you the email before i forward it to her..okay..you
are kind indeed to point me to this direction... with christmas coming...time
is tight..spent 2 hours weeding in garden...my zen activity..in motion
meditation..love weeding began it as a child... and so good for
joe..here is an example of the good shepherd at work..brilliant!..no strings
attached..help for the needy..merle
http://www.thewaysidechapel.com/
again joe..no strings attached..
no holy than thou..no need for why
what must be done is done with a good heart...
all the work of the good shepherd...
as they say too much navel gazing can bring about sterility of enlightenment.
.and the old story emerges...the caterpillar with a 100
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