RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false doctrine required for their repentance? It would seem like it should be. If so, the fact that no such announcement was made regarding the views of a given person who was excomunicated would be indicative that those veiws were _not_ the cause of their excomunication. It would _NOT_ indicate that they were correct, just that they were not the cause of the excomunication. Scott On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:22:46 +, Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a general statement of the outcome. (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.) -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Scott McGee wrote: --- Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine, is a statement from them renouncing the false doctrine required for their repentance? --- If there is such a policy, I have not heard of it. In my experience, the specific information relating to most disciplinary courts is never disclosed by the church, notwithstanding circumstances where you might think that some public straightening-out would be in order. At the most, I have on occasion heard brief statements read in a local priesthood meeting, generally to the effect that so-and-so is no longer in fellowship with the church. I have never heard of an excommunicated member being encouraged to make public statements, either to renounce the false teaching he might have been promoting or for any other reason. In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from publically discussing their problems or mistakes. Those that air their dirty laundry seemingly tend to be continuing in open defiance against the counsel of local leaders, some going to extremes like holding press conferences or publishing books or articles exposing their supposedly unfair handling by ecclesiastical authorities. Those who would repent and seek to have their membership restored seem to see this as a private matter, of which they have little desire to discuss publically. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
In fact it would seem that the opposite approach is generally followed--excommunicated members are usually discouraged from publically discussing their problems or mistakes My last Stake President was excommunicated. Shortly after his excommunication he being accompanied by the new Stake President visited the priesthood quorums and the Relief Society to express his apologies. I seem to remember he visited the youth too. He appeared to be very sorry but no longer towered with a spiritual aura but appeared shrunken. It was evident that he did not have the Holy Ghost. It was really strange. Take heed brothers and sisters, any of us including the sanctified can fall. And that means you! Watch and be on guard. Pray always and don't give up. Satan has your number and he will work on you relentlessly. He does with me and I'm having a hard time holding on as I'm going through the fire of testing. Gadzooks, I will be glad when it's over--someday. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Paul Osborne wrote: --- No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. --- Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't have lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual safety belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections. In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own favorite issues. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote: No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine. Also, if he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to stop. And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will be excommunicated. We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and not doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family members say. *rate is really right, but that's how many Canadians pronounce it. Mark, Bonnie, et. al., try saying right away quickly and see how it comes out. Paul Osborne wrote: Ok, question time. If a person is excomunicated due to them having taught false doctrine No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
It depends on what's meant by teaching. If you are GD teacher and you let slip a whopper in all innocence, no one's going to care, although you may be corrected. But if you start doing it purposely, knowing it's against the core doctrine of the Church (like, say, we should all go back to polygamy), you'll be hauled up on your SP's carpet rate* some smartly, as my Nova Scotia family members say. I don't care what the person taught--he or she cannot be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. But, if they continue in their *disobedience* after having been admonished not to to teach false doctrine they will undoubtedly find themselves under some sort of church discipline which could lead to excommunication depending on the nature and extent of their sin. Polygamy? No thanks. I'm not going to get involved. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
I agree. You're an excellent reader and thanks for pointing out the difference. Paul O On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:40:33 -0900 John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 12:30 PM, Tuesday, 10/29/02, Paul Osborne wrote: No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching false doctrine. He can if he tries to convince others that it is Church doctrine. Also, if he is teaching false doctrine, his priesthood leaders will ask him to stop. And if he defiantly continues to expound the false teaching, he will be excommunicated. We always need to keep in mind the difference between false doctrine and not doctrine. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
false
doctrine.
---
Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't
have
lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual
safety
belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.
This is absolutely right, Jim.
This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward. He was
controversial to say the least. In fact, JWR will probably know about
whom I am referring. Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
years while he got his PhD from ND. During this time, many times in
Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
easily be construed as false doctrine. However, our elder HP brethren
were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him. It
was really beautiful to watch.
Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday. I was extremely sad to see
them go. I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
me--like a rebellious younger brother. But our ward had embraced and
loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!). He
got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
they lived here). He said that this was the only ward where he had been
truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
mutual.
Then he said something that still makes me chuckle. He said, I know
I've stirred things up a lot here. I didn't mean to. You see, we are
like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant. The gospel is
that elephant. We all see different things with our hands. Most all
of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
way. Me--I'm at the rear. It's the same elephant, but I have an
entirely different perspective than the mainstream. Someday I hope I
find the front too.
It was really touching. He also said he was grateful for the love and
patience he and his family felt while they were here. I cannot wait for
the day when I will see them again.
anyway
val
In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is
preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own
favorite
issues.
---
Mij Ebaboc
/
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
I wonder if you're talking about Tim. No need to answer that.
Valerie Nielsen Williams wrote:
On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 20:31:22 + Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Paul Osborne wrote:
---
No one in this church can be excommunicated for simply teaching
false
doctrine.
---
Fortunate for me--I get it wrong nearly every time, and I wouldn't
have
lasted long in this church otherwise. Tolerance is the virtual
safety
belt that lets us live with each other in our imperfections.
This is absolutely right, Jim.
This reminds me of a young man we used to have in our ward. He was
controversial to say the least. In fact, JWR will probably know about
whom I am referring. Anyway, he and his wife lived here for about 4
years while he got his PhD from ND. During this time, many times in
Gospel Doctrine, he'd say something, or contend something that could
easily be construed as false doctrine. However, our elder HP brethren
were always very gentle with this young man and would frequently pull him
off to the side after class and instruct correct principle with him. It
was really beautiful to watch.
Their last Sunday here was a Fast Sunday. I was extremely sad to see
them go. I love her like my own sister, but he was really special to
me--like a rebellious younger brother. But our ward had embraced and
loved this young man. (I'm getting choked up thinking about it now!). He
got up that last Sunday and thanked the ward for the fellowshipping he
and his family had received (they had two adorable little girls while
they lived here). He said that this was the only ward where he had been
truly accepted and loved and that this would always be home--and it was
mutual.
Then he said something that still makes me chuckle. He said, I know
I've stirred things up a lot here. I didn't mean to. You see, we are
like the blind men, feeling their way around an elephant. The gospel is
that elephant. We all see different things with our hands. Most all
of you are at the front of the elephant, and see the elephant the same
way. Me--I'm at the rear. It's the same elephant, but I have an
entirely different perspective than the mainstream. Someday I hope I
find the front too.
It was really touching. He also said he was grateful for the love and
patience he and his family felt while they were here. I cannot wait for
the day when I will see them again.
anyway
val
In fact I'm not sure we even take notice when false doctrine is
preached, unless it somehow offends the sense of one of our own
favorite
issues.
---
Mij Ebaboc
/
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Guns dont kill people; people with guns kill people
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Noel: After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know, scary thing). Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things. For example--salvation and exaltation. Are they the same?? Sometimes Salvation is used in a context to mean Exaltation but generally speaking, and standing alone, they are not. I think context is important as you make your list of relevant scriptures. For instance, we are gentiles. Most of us have earth origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy. However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness. That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me. I am of the tribe of Ephraim. Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim? I doubt it. It's an adoption thing. In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ. end of thoughts FWIW val .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Val, You hit the issue on the head. In one context, a word has a particular meaning, in another something different. But, after the first scratch of the surface, I can see that there are definite patterns. For example, in 1st Nephi chapters 13-15, one can see a pattern of pre-restoration (1st Nephi 13:1-33), restoration ( 1st Nephi 13:34-42) and post restoration (1st Nephi 14) designations of gentiles. As can be expected, the restoration and post-restoration are, I believe, inclusive of the members of the church. That approach makes sense to me based of the blessings bestowed in the last two sections relative to the Gentiles. It is also appropriate to consider the warnings in those sections to be applicable to the members of the church Hope that helps. Noel ---Original Message--- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:39:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel? Noel: After reading your response to John, I had a thought (I know, scary thing). Sometimes--in fact many times--in the scriptures and doctrines of the church, one word does mean many different things. For example--salvation and exaltation. Are they the same?? Sometimes Salvation is used in a context to mean Exaltation but generally speaking, and standing alone, they are not. I think context is important as you make your list of relevant scriptures. For instance, we are gentiles. Most of us have earth origins that go back to Europe--or that is predominant in our genealogy. However, we are adopted into the tribes of Israel by our righteousness. That is what my patriarchal blessing tells me. I am of the tribe of Ephraim. Am I a direct descendent of Ephraim? I doubt it. It's an adoption thing. In another context, the term gentile is meant to refer to the worldly world--those who do not have the light of Christ. end of thoughts FWIW val / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Israel is covenant-founded, temple-based, and Christ-centered. The work of Jesus Christ is the reason the covenant of Abraham exists. The Abrahamic covenant, which is the covenant of Israel, is in every way as significant in the last days as it was in any age of the past. Jesus Christ is the Savior of all nations, yet by heavenly design and divine intent, he was born into the of through the house of David. Although he is God of the whole earth, he is precisely the Holy One of Israel. The arrangement of nations and races is the work of the Lord, according to his foreknowledge and our own premortal existence. Thus God has a hand in the development of history. The Abrahamic covenant is a prototype or manifestation of the work and mission of Jesus Christ. Just as Jesus was an Israelite but extends his Atonement to all nations, so also the Abrahamic covenant is centered in Israel but has provisions for reaching out to all nations. The covenant incorporates priesthood, the Holy Ghost, baptism, eternal marriage, posterity, land, and a blessing for all nations. The literal, biological descendants of Abraham have a natural right to the priesthood and the fullness of the gospel of Christ. Ephraim holds the birthright, or keys of presidency, in the last days. Jesus deliberately limited his personal ministry, both before and after his Resurrection, to those nations biologically of Israel. Jesus manifests himself to the Gentiles through the Holy Ghost, as they are taught the gospel by prophets who are of the house of Israel. The Gentile nations can obtain the blessings of the gospel through the preaching of the prophets of Israel. Whether one is Gentile or Israelite, the only way to obtain the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant is by faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, receiving the Holy Ghost, priesthood, and so forth. The house of Israel has been scattered over all the world, among all nations; therefore, most nations today have the blood of Israel in their veins to some extent or another. Latter-day Saints are for the most part biologically descended from Joseph through Ephraim and Manasseh. As descendants of Joseph, the members of the Church have a responsibility in the last days to feed the world the bread of life, that is, the gospel of Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith was a legal heir to the priesthood and the keys of presidency through his lineage of Ephraim. As far as individual salvation is concerned, a Gentile can be saved in the celestial kingdom as an Israelite can, but the process for the Gentile is to obtain the gospel through the agency of Israelite prophets and teachers. A primary purpose of the gathering is for building temples so that sacred ordinances essential for salvation may be administered. The building of temples is an indication that the blood of Israel is present in the land. That truth is especially noteworthy in view of the temples being built in Asia (Japan, Taiwan, Korea, Hong Kong, the Philippines, and so forth). The holy scriptures are Israel's witness for Jesus Christ and will eventually consist of records of the Jews, the Nephites, and the ten tribes. The tribes of Judah, Joseph, and Levi were each given special responsibilities of long-lasting significance, which will be fulfilled when Israel is restored to the lands of their inheritance. The restoration of Israel in the last days is much more extensive than a mere gathering and is a work many times larger than the exodus from Egypt in Moses' time. The promises of restoration are beginning to be fulfilled even now but will not be fully accomplished until well into the Millennium. The gathering progresses through various phases. The first phase was to midwestern America and then to the Rocky Mountains. Currently the gathering is to the stakes of Zion wherever they may be. Other phases will come in their time. To be engaged in the gathering and restoration of Israel was described by the Prophet Joseph Smith as being on the pathway to eternal fame and immortal glory. (Robert J. Matthews, Selected Writings of Robert J. Matthews: Gospel Scholars Series [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1999], 581.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Who is the House of Israel?
Great consideration is given regarding the confidentiality of the decisions of a Church disciplinary council. No announcement is ever made when a member is placed on formal probation. Decisions to disfellowship or excommunicate are generally not announced publicly unless the transgression is widely known, the transgressor's behavior constitutes a threat to the Church or the community, or an announcement is necessary to dispel rumors. Even when an announcement is made, it is limited to a general statement of the outcome. (M. Russell Ballard, Counseling with Our Councils: Learning to Minister Together in the Church and in the Family [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1997], 141 - 142.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
