RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
I doubt such a scheme would actually work today but it's certainly worth trying. I'm trying to reply to as few of these posts as possible and am not answering a huge number of them as I know this list is going elsewhere. Stacy. At 05:39 PM 12/18/2002 +, you wrote: The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of people waiting. A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were "Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that there was no public forum in the decision-making process. One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell was around. I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect. When the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately discouraged and quickly left the town. Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square while the arguments continue. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well, maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to "p*** in their own manger," as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of the demonstrations, and who loves to try to sue anyone who 'defames' him [I only write this without trepidation because I am safely in Canada. Not that he couldn't hire a lawyer up here, but he'd have to find Canada first, as the old joke goes]. Anyway, he's well-known to many LDS apologists and is one of the more obnoxious breeds of anti-Mormons. Even the Tanners won't have anything to do with him. Jim Cobabe wrote: > The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got > there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at > 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was > winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of > people waiting. > > A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were > "Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and > damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open > period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and > rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began > the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. > > Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, > notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were > prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom > the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was > an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that > there was no public forum in the decision-making process. > > One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was > pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter > Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell > was around. > > I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling > and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect. When > the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder > of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became > a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of > young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys > would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to > them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a > lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately > discouraged and quickly left the town. > > Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square > while the arguments continue. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Day of Heckling on Plaza Thrusts Issues to Forefront The scene earlier today on the Main Street plaza included street preachers carrying placards and screaming their beliefs, sometimes through bullhorns. December 17, 2002 KSL News Specialist Carole Mikita reporting Salt Lake City Council chambers are expected to be packed tonight for the public hearing on the Main Street plaza controversy. The issue of free speech came to a boiling point on the Main Street Plaza today... when protestors heckled wedding parties. News Specialist Carole Mikita has that story as well as reaction from Mayor Anderson. Deanie and Bruce... today's encounter on the plaza caused the mayor to rethink his own time, place and manner restrictions which he proposed as a solution to this problem... it now appears that even he believes some have pushed the idea of free speech too far. They call themselves Bible believers... with giant placards in hand and shouting sometimes through bullhornsthey drew plenty of attention from passersby and wedding parties. "IF YOU TRY TO DO ANYTHING TO INFRINGE ON A PERSON'S FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS... AND MY ATTORNEYS DON'T ONLY LIKE TO GO AFTER THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THEY LIKE TO GO AFTER YOUR PENSIONS..." A Salt Lake City police officer, tried to get them to move just 20 feet down the walkway, so that brides and grooms could take pictures with the temple behind them. They refused to leave... "COMMON DECENCY, YOU DON'T HAVE IT... I'M NOT MOVIN... THAT'S RIGHT... I'M NOT MOVIN..." Anne Burt/ Mother of the Bride"I'M NOT ANGRY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW... BUT IT'S TOO BAD, IT'S TOO BAD... I'M SURE THEY ALL HAVE DAUGHTERS AND SOMEDAY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THEIR PICTURES TAKEN, TOO BUT, YOU KNOW, LIFE GOES ON..." "AND SAINTS AND SANTS AND ANGELS SING..." Then a Latter-day Saint seminary choir in the downtown area to perform, added their voices to counter the screams of the street preachers... Tonight Mayor Anderson said he received a letter from the ACLU saying protestors must be allowed along the full length of the easement... he saw what happened this morning and changed his mind about time, place and manner restrictions. Rocky Anderson/ Salt Lake City Mayor "THERE WERE SOME VERY OBNOXIOUS, LOUD PEOPLE YELLING OBSCENITIES APPARENTLY... DISRUPTING A WEDDING PARTY... THAT IS SO COUNTER TO ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY INTENDED ON THIS PLAZA AND IF IT TAKES THAT TO MAKE THESE TIME, PLACE AND MANNER RESTRICTIONS WORK... THEN WE OUGHT TO JUST TAKE THE WHOLE PROPOSAL OFF THE TABLE AND LOOK AT SOMETHING ELSE..." The mayor is now supporting the proposal that he made yesterday with the Alliance for Unity. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of people waiting. A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were "Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that there was no public forum in the decision-making process. One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell was around. I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect. When the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately discouraged and quickly left the town. Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square while the arguments continue. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Stacy Smith wrote: > Can I call from out of state? I did. The human answering the line after you press "2" (they were getting more calls than their computer could handle, I guess) did ask me if I was calling from out of state - and from where. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
John W. Redelfs wrote: > Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you? --JWR There's a one-panel cartoon which sums up my weaknesses. A fellow is saying "I thought - what would Jesus do? And I tried to forgive him. Then I thought - what would Porter Rockwell do? And I punched his face in." *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Can I call from out of state? Stacy. At 04:08 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal > Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > > the argument were the lawyers. > > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > > Noj (not a babe at all) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jim the Babe wrote: > > Jon Spencer wrote: > --- > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > --- > > Provocative thought. Whereby does Satan gain, in this world? Perhaps > in stirring up the hearts of men to anger and contention. (This is > where the lawyers come in.) But a consistent lesson from the scriptures > seems to be that Satan does not significantly thwart the progress of > Heavenly Father's work, notwithstanding all his demonic scheming. The work may progress - DOES progress - but individual progression remains an individual choice. The more controversy that can be raised, the more negative press that can be generated to turn the great unwashed (:-) away from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the more Satan (thinks he) gains, and the greater number of our brothers and sisters will be held to a lower kingdom. That is what I think Satan could be gaining. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
George Cobabe favored us with: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. Thanks to public education and television most people will believe anything. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: There's one particular troublemaker named Kurt Van Gorden who will likely try to get himself arrested, and have the ACLU back his legal defence (he tends to work this way -- he sues everyone, into bankruptcy, if he can, but has no assets to speak of himself). That will be an interesting case. Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jon Spencer wrote: --- No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. --- Provocative thought. Whereby does Satan gain, in this world? Perhaps in stirring up the hearts of men to anger and contention. (This is where the lawyers come in.) But a consistent lesson from the scriptures seems to be that Satan does not significantly thwart the progress of Heavenly Father's work, notwithstanding all his demonic scheming. I have to conclude about the Main Street deal, if it closes with the current proposal, that the Church does not deal with the devil. If Church Leaders agree to the current arrangement, it must also have the blessing of God. I have no doubt that Heavenly Father looks with great pleasure and approval on the works of the Church, that He directs the decisions, and that all things work together for good in the building up of His Church and Kingdom. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
There's one particular troublemaker named Kurt Van Gorden who will likely try to get himself arrested, and have the ACLU back his legal defence (he tends to work this way -- he sues everyone, into bankruptcy, if he can, but has no assets to speak of himself). That will be an interesting case. Jim Cobabe wrote: > SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson just announced a new proposed plan to settle > the Main Street Plaza legal controversy. It appears that Mayor Rocky is > ready to concede that the Church should have full control of Plaza > access, and in exchange for offering this compromise, he suggests that > the Church should donate some property holdings on the west side of SLC > for construction and development of community improvement facilities. > Bishop Burton responded to the proposal favorably and suggested that the > matter be deliberated further at the city council meeting on Tuesday. > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > the argument were the lawyers. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal > Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > > the argument were the lawyers. > > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > > Noj (not a babe at all) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > the argument were the lawyers. No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. Noj (not a babe at all) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson just announced a new proposed plan to settle the Main Street Plaza legal controversy. It appears that Mayor Rocky is ready to concede that the Church should have full control of Plaza access, and in exchange for offering this compromise, he suggests that the Church should donate some property holdings on the west side of SLC for construction and development of community improvement facilities. Bishop Burton responded to the proposal favorably and suggested that the matter be deliberated further at the city council meeting on Tuesday. My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from the argument were the lawyers. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
