RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron Scott wrote: --- Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. --- Don't be silly. Eastern-bloc communism could be revived overnight. Communist governments in third-world countries in Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America are a constant threat to our security. Any semi-rational person can see this. Even now we as a nation are making huge efforts around the world to advocate and encourage democratic governments. Your negative reflections on Benson's politics are specious. Of course some of the specifics do not pertain to current events, just like some writings of Isaiah about the Assyrians are not particularly pertinant today. But there's nothing outdated or anachronistic about President Benson's counsel regarding loyalty to God and country. Plenty of us could take lessons from President Benson's teachings. One of the more telling complaints I've heard from right-wing folks is that liberals seem to hate America and what it stands for. It is easy to understand why patriotic folks with traditional ideals form this opinion. It is difficult, in the context of these times, to understand why anyone would sell short the importance of national defense and security. I worry far more about that than I do about being preoccupied with Communists hiding in every toilet. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 10:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out Ron Scott wrote: --- Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. --- Don't be silly. I wasn't being silly. It was a sincere question. Eastern-bloc communism could be revived overnight. Communist governments in third-world countries in Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America are a constant threat to our security. Any semi-rational person can see this. Ah, I'm less than semi-rational. I suppose I'll validate your name calling if I say I don't agree with you. Not agreeing with you is prima facie evidence that I am less than semi-rational, right? It's possible that communism could be revived in some former republics of the USSR. The chances are quite remote, but it could happen. In former USSR satellites in Eastern Europe? Not much of a chance: not Eastonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, (East Germany is now part of Germany, in case you missed the news), Ukraine, Hungary, Czechloslovakia, Yugoslavias. A little bit of a chance in Byelorus and Bulgaria. Obviously you disagree. So please give me a specific example of an Eastern European country that could slide back into communism. I suppose it could happen in some countries of South America and Africa. But, if it did, it would hardly pose a serious threat to the U.S., to the rest of the world. Even now we as a nation are making huge efforts around the world to advocate and encourage democratic governments. True enough. But the alternative to democracy isn't necessarily communism. Your negative reflections on Benson's politics are specious. We'll please be specific about my speciousness, if it's not too much to ask. I think I limited my comments on former President Benson's politics to this: I don't agree with his politics. Of course some of the specifics do not pertain to current events, just like some writings of Isaiah about the Assyrians are not particularly pertinant today. But there's nothing outdated or anachronistic about President Benson's counsel regarding loyalty to God and country. Who said there was? Not me. Plenty of us could take lessons from President Benson's teachings. I do. I listen to him and many others. As you know I'm particularly fond of President Hinckley. I had/have deep respect Presidents McKay, Kimball,Lee and George Albert Smith and Joseph Fielding Smith and wish President Hunter had been a little more outspoken as an apostle. My list includes all the prophets who have led the church during my life. One of the more telling complaints I've heard from right-wing folks is that liberals seem to hate America and what it stands for. It is easy to understand why patriotic folks with traditional ideals form this opinion. It is difficult, in the context of these times, to understand why anyone would sell short the importance of national defense and security. I worry far more about that than I do about being preoccupied with Communists hiding in every toilet. Did I say a word about national defense? Did I write a word that would suggest that I underrate the importance of national defense at this time? I DID NOT. You are putting words in my mouth, drawing inferences that have NO BASIS IN FACT,Brother Jim. Surprise. Believe it or not Jim, like you I believe its far more importance for our nation to be concerned about national defense and security than to turn into a nation of worry warts over whether theres a commy in every commode. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
At 01:54 PM 11/13/2003, Ron Scott asked: Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. And, please don't post reams of stuff I've read before. Tell me what YOU think. Ok, here are a few things that come to mind: 1. Communism still very much rules over a great portion of the earth. China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam., etc. 2. Marxist-Leninist Terrorist Organizations still operate in many parts of the world. Such as the Shining Path, FARC, Tamil Tigers, etc. Incidentally, my wife's uncle, Ray Rising, was captured and held by Marxist-Leninist Guerrilla's (The Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia or FARC) for 810 days. He wrote a book of his ordeal which you can read about here: http://www.bible.org/docs/br/bookreview-21.htm 3. That the policies of Glasnost and Perestroika are Potemkin Villages, setup to lull the United States and the rest of the West to sleep. I find it interesting, for example, that Putin was a former KGB agent and that Gorbachev, in his book, _Perestroika_ admitted that he is still very much a Marxist. 4. China's Opening to the West is very much following the Marxist strategy of dialectical advance. China admits in an official White Paper, available on their website, that the purpose of trade is to build up their Manufacturing and Military infrastructure while at the same time weakening the west. These are just a few of my thoughts--but perhaps you had a more specific question in mind? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wishing to advance in a room full of people, I do not walk through the aisle and straight toward my goal. Nor do I move slowly through the crowd shaking hands with friends and acquaintances, discussing points of interest, gradually nearing the objective. The dialectical pathway is different. It consists of a resolute forward advance followed by an abrupt turn and retreat. Having retreated a distance there is another turn and advance. Through a series of forward-backward steps the goal is approached. To advance thus is to advance dialectically. The Communist goal is fixed and changeless, but their direction of advance reverses itself from time to time. They approach their goal by going directly away from it a considerable portion of the time. Lenin wrote the textbook, One Step Forward, Two Steps Back. Chinese Communist schoolchildren are taught to do the dialectical march taking three steps forward and two steps back. If we judge where the Communists are going by the direction in which they are moving we will obviously be deceived. (Dr. Fred Schwarz, Founder of the Christian Anti-Communism Crusade and Author of, _You Can Trust the Communists: To be Communists_) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
At 10:02 AM 11/14/2003, Ron Scott wrote: Surprise. Believe it or not Jim, like you I believe its far more importance for our nation to be concerned about national defense and security than to turn into a nation of worry warts over whether theres a commy in every commode. Believe it or not--but I absolutely agree with you in this particular. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul. --President John Quincy Adams // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron Scott wrote: --- Ah, I'm less than semi-rational. I suppose I'll validate your name calling if I say I don't agree with you. Not agreeing with you is prima facie evidence that I am less than semi-rational, right? --- Not agreeing with me is evidence that we do not agree. No surprise in that. We can still talk, can't we? RBS: --- It's possible that communism could be revived in some former republics of the USSR. --- No dramatic revival would be required for many formerly communist countries. Just a transition back to old familiar ways. Isn't it rather academic that any socio-political group which believes communism is the best viable economic and political system could assume power. Particularly in unstable countries where there is nothing competing for that niche. shrug In spite of your light dismissal, there are still plenty of folks in evidence even in this country who are devoted to Marxist ideals. They would welcome another chance. RBS: --- True enough. But the alternative to democracy isn't necessarily communism. --- Oh? You think monarchy or feudal fiefdom are still popular up-and-coming governments? RBS: --- We'll please be specific about my speciousness, if it's not too much to ask. --- Don't play dumb. Your characterizations of Benson are nearly unanimously polemic. Lableling him as the icon of the right wing can hardly be taken as an even-handed compliment by anyone. RBS: --- I listen to him and many others. --- Yes--there's listening, then there's listening. RBS: --- You are putting words in my mouth, drawing inferences that have NO BASIS IN FACT,Brother Jim. --- Eh. I only put words in my own mouth. Yours is way too far away. smile RBS: --- ...whether theres a commy in every commode. --- In your face, Ron. This was your (obviously polemic) characterization. Want to change the tone of the discussion? Go ahead, I'll reciprocate. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Punch their lights out
And what a great disguise he had. . .acting like he was an anti-communist. I mean, how else would McCarthy have known (suspected) of so many communists --and yet he went after all the wrong people? Coincidence? or Conspiracy? ;-) val On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:47:30 -0700 Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: COMMUNIST SPIES HAD SATURATED U.S. GOVERNMENT The opening of the KGB archives and the release of the VENONA intercepts (decoded Soviet KGB and GRU traffic) proved that in the 1950's Senator Joseph McCarthy was absolutely right about the extensive Soviet penetration of the U.S. government in all the most sensitive sections and its danger to America. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Punch their lights out
Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. K'aya K'ama Gerald Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom/ Freedom Forever Ron:I know Doug Robinson is not dense, but it seems to me that he should have figured out long ago that in these hyper-media times John Wayne types would get more attention than the meek and mild of the world. The fallout from the demonstrations around Temple Square this Fall has been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, was absolutely disgusted by the vile protestors and so were many, most of her colleagues. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Gerald Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [ZION] Punch their lights out Ron, And yet it is the ACLU that has pushed for access on the sidewalks around Temple Square. Interesting that their disgust motivates the ACLU into pushing for even more disgusting civil liberties, eh? One can argue for civil liberties and still be disgusted by the way people abuse them. I'd imagine the Lord gets pretty disgusted from time to time at the way we abuse our freedoms. So far as I can tell, he does little to abridge and amend them. Instead, for the most part, he lets nature take its course. This seems to be the way its going in SLC, in my opinion. I'm all for freedom of speech, but I also believe that personal property rights need to be respected, as well. Initially, the deed for the Main Street property did contain an easement for a public right of way. I happen to think that the city is better off if the church owns outright the Main Street property-- and that's the way the deal should have been structured in the first place. Unfortunately, it wasn't. I believe the Church should have told the city to pound sand when it injected the easement provision at the last moment. More unfortunately, the deal was strapped together the old fashioned way, in ways that would have, in principle, grossly offend conservatives if the acquiring party been anything other than the Church. The Church has offered a generous trade to the city of 2 acres land in exchange for the rights of access, yet the ACLU continues to fight it. Given the history of how this deal came together and that the Federal Courts ruled in the ACLU's favor, I can understand why they would be wary and cautious of a new deal. There is a principle at stake. To me it has absolutely NOTHING to do with whether one is a loyal church member or not. Arguably, a loyal Church member would insist that the Church honor, obey and sustain the law (which includes procedures mandated by law). As I said, the earlier ears sit squarely in the lap of the city for proposing the deal, failing to give ample public notice to the electorate, changing the nature of the deal at the last minute. The Church's lawyers erred by not rejecting the last minute change out of hand and, previously, for not insisting that the city follow all the rules and regs that pertain to the selling of city owned land. I think your friends who are disgusted do not protest enough. Or at least do not protest enough in the direction they should. Well...for years, for as long as I can remember, there have been protestors and demonstrations at conference. Frankly, most were entertaining, if annoying. The ones at the most recent conference seemed completely over the top, bigoted and arguably a violation of the civil rights of some conference goers. Moreover, in my mind, the nature of the protests this past confrence session provided the opportunity for to restrict similar protests in the future on the ground they present a clear and present danger to the general peace of the city; and for police to begin to arrest protestors who become harrassers. I will not be surprised to see the ACLU support such measures. In my opinion, the terrible events that antis are doing in front of the temple are just as much the fault of the ACLU as of the Antis doing it. They are often the ennablers of such wicked and sordid craft. Yep, that Consitution of ours allows evil and wicked stuff, that's for sure. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
At 03:18 PM 11/12/2003, RBS wrote: been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, Apparently your friend is not aware of the ACLU's origins: http://www.geocities.com/graymada/aclu.html Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] It is no accident, then, that so many who gathered at Philadelphia to declare independence and a decade later to draft a constitution were men who had apprenticed themselves to Thucydides, Plato, Aristotle, Polybius, and Cicero, and who could debate at length on the various constitutional forms of the classical world before they chose one for the new American nation. We owe our very existence as a people in great part to classical learning.T. L. Simmons // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. There is some merit in what you say. Some causes picked up by the ACLU seem pointless and counter-productive, others do not. But again, I thank for yet another spectacular non-response. grin. B.S. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 01:35 PM 11/13/2003, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 08:25 AM 11/13/2003, RB Scott wrote: Which explains a great deal about the issues the ACLU chooses to get involved with. And the examples you have in mind would be? Well, if I have to point them out to you it wouldn't do any good anyway. You already have your mind made up. Most reasonable people, if they've paid any attention at all to current events, can see the bitter fruits that the ACLU produces. There is some merit in what you say. Some causes picked up by the ACLU seem pointless and counter-productive, others do not. But again, I thank for yet another spectacular non-response. grin. B.S. Perhaps another time, when I'm not so pressed with other matters, I'll get into more of the specifics. Right, sure. Any time you're ready. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out
-Original Message- From: Steven Montgomery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 5:11 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch their lights out At 01:54 PM 11/13/2003, Ron Scott wrote: Where, in your opinion, is the communist threat today. And, please don't post reams of stuff I've read before. Tell me what YOU think. Ron Scott I will, when I have the time (Had to take my wife down to St. George this morning, and right now I'm presently getting ready for work--yes, some of us still do work grin). In the meantime you might want to peruse a few articles I've written on the subject. Beginning with: Actually, many of us do work. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/Glasnost-Perestroika.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/Glasnost-Perestroika1.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/whosonfirst.htm http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/mlhw.html http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Crete/4516/gp/tradewithchina.html http://www.geocities.com/athens/crete/4516/gp/ChinaGordianknot.html -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] The only constant in the world is change--Karl Marx // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Stacy, That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to resist evil with good. The mainstream response would be to resist evil with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our way following the principles outlined by Christ. Tom -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom /// // / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
I guess it all depends on whose stream you are in that determines whether we are mainstream or not. When it comes to following the Lord's prophets, I'll try my best to be as mainstream as possible. Interesting how hard it is to turn the other cheek at times. Do we do as the pacifist Lamanites and lay down our weapons of war, or do we send off our sons to do the fighting for us, as they did? I guess it depends upon each and every situation, and what God expects in that moment of decision. Since these anti-Mormon demonstrators are not physically attacking the saints, there should be no reason to get physical ourselves. Only in the event of an actual attack should we consider fighting, and then only in self defense if possible. Of course, there always are exceptions, such as when God told Nephi to slay Laban (somewhat pre-emptive, I must say). But there is a standard, and then there are exceptions, and we should preach, teach and follow the standard. Gary Smith Tom Matkin wrote: Stacy, That was my point exactly. We will not be mainstream if we continue to resist evil with good. The mainstream response would be to resist evil with evil. We are not conforming to the world in this, we are making our way following the principles outlined by Christ. Tom -Original Message- From: Stacy Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: November 12, 2003 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Whoever said we were supposed to be mainstream? Aren't we supposed to not be conformed to this world? Stacy. At 01:20 PM 10/31/2003 -0700, you wrote: -Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom /// // / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// /// // -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// // /// Gerald (Gary) Smith geraldsmith@ juno.com http://www.geocities.com/rameumptom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Jim Cobabe wrote: submits Deseret News Column 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News snip Most of those attending General Conference probably did ask themselves, as some critics have suggested, What would Jesus do? and then did it. Three people asked themselves, What would John Wayne do? and did that. All people remember are those three. I know Doug Robinson is not dense, but it seems to me that he should have figured out long ago that in these hyper-media times John Wayne types would get more attention than the meek and mild of the world. The fallout from the demonstrations around Temple Square this Fall has been interesting. A high school classmate of mine, an ACLU lawyer, was absolutely disgusted by the vile protestors and so were many, most of her colleagues. RBS // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
Re: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
- Original Message - From: Jim Cobabe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out Returning good for evil is an intriguing idea. But the suggestion in this context brings more questions than it seems to answer. I don't see it as raising so many questions. It certainly tests us in this context and in almost every context. What context do you see the application of returning good for evil as being more appropriate? The exceptions you raise, of Christ cleansing the temple, for example, must be seen in the greater context of God's will. Occasionally we are asked, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and only when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, to take a more judgmental and aggressive response. Like Nephi in 1 Nephi disposing of Laban. The exceptions don't complicate the general rule, which is to love your fellowman at all times and to treat him as though he has great worth (DC 18) even when his current behavior seems to contradict that designation. And Paul seems to add, especially when his behavior shows questionable worth on his part. (Romans 12.) Returning love to those who mistreat us is exceedingly difficult and can, when we have been severely or continuously abused, only be accomplished, I believe, by an appeal to and the ministration of the Holy Ghost. But it's so necessary. We can't truly love God and hate our fellow men, because our hatred puts us at odds with God's wishes. God's wish is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all men. He wants us all to succeed, and that means for us to get along with each other. In an interesting sense that's the whole of the gospel, at least it's the first great commandment and the second that's like unto it. Even when God has prompted aggressive judgmental action, it has not been a green light to be hateful. Nephi did not take joy in cutting Laban's head off, even though Laban had sought to take his life and stood in the way of Nephi's need to get hold of the brass plates. Nephi's test here was one of obedience to a very distasteful task. Not the sort of response that is indicative of the phrase punch their lights out. Of course if our urge to punch their lights out is prompted by the Holy Ghost as a righteous judgment and necessary in God's plan, then I guess we should go ahead. But I'd check with the prophet first on that one, because these people are protesting against the church as a whole and the response to them by individual members should conform with the directions given by the prophet of the church. Has President Hinckley issued a statement on the protests and how members are expected to deal with them? Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
-Original Message- From: Jim Cobabe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: October 31, 2003 11:05 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out 99,997 ignored antagonists By Doug Robinson Deseret Morning News Like a lot of people, you're probably still trying to make sense of the ongoing debate regarding the street preachers and the stormin' Mormons. Matthew 5: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Romans 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Matthew 5: 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? I have walked past those preachers at the gates of the Conference Centre and have been tested to just walk on by and leave vengeance to God. Everything in the media patterns an aggressive response - well everything since that strange western TV series years ago where Grasshopper (David Carradine as Caine) was supposed to take all kinds of abuse, although it seems to me that in the end, even he, turned to Kung Fu (after all that's what the series was called) to solve his problems, his pacifism usually was what got him into trouble. If we continue to resist evil with good we will never be mainstream. Tom // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
RE: [ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Returning good for evil is an intriguing idea. But the suggestion in this context brings more questions than it seems to answer. How does one do this? What about Jesus whipping the moneychangers from the temple? Maybe punching their lights out was the appropriate response. Do aggressive violent acts ever serve good rather than evil? Perhaps the Savior is exempt from the good for evil rule. It is given to us to know good from evil, therefore we have an obligation to judge for ourselves. sigh Life is so complicated... // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
[ZION] Punch Their Lights Out
Rusty Taylor wrote: Then, walk by these people on purpose and lay the flower at their feet and smile sweetly at them. Can you imagine these people with mound of tens of thousands of flowers around them?! Let them be the irrational ones. Let us rise above it and be the examples of Christ. That would be something to take a picture of, wouldn't it? I'd much rather punch their lights out, and then be the one who goes to jail for losing his temper. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --^ This email was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] TOPICA - Start your own email discussion group. FREE! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/create/index2.html --^
