Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote: On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote: I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday You think, I hope :-) I beg ;-) . ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote: Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote: On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote: I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday You think, I hope :-) I beg ;-) . ___ Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who like dtml and those who like zpt? Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choose which most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide a valid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-) regards Garry ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
I took part in an old thread from here from several months ago:http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/zope/users/184052?do=post_view_threaded In there, some of the prominent members from this list came up with some great points on the DTML vs ZPT thing. All great stuff. However, I agree with you. While some of the ZPT fans say that DTML is broke and it sucks, and from there perspective it might, for some of us DTML is great and we have no desire to use ZPT. For us, DTML is not broke. I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do. Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it. Now don't get me wrong about that last paragraph, I LOVE ZOPE! It just does things so easily that other environments have to struggle with. (Acquisition being one of them. Which also is something that people say is broke in some ways. It does do weird things sometimes. But if you know how to deal with them... ;) I hope my opinions are of help to others. (just remember, these are just my opinions, to those to might be ready to slam me for them. I intend no offense.)GregOn 1/16/06, garry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nicolas Georgakopoulos wrote: Rakotomandimby Mihamina wrote: On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote: I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday You think, I hope :-) I beg ;-). ___Can someone explain why there is a continual battle between those who like dtml and those who like zpt?Surely the two can co-exist and then individual developers can choosewhich most suits them. Neither seems to be broken and both provide avalid experience for users, so let's be tolerant. :-) regardsGarry___Zope maillist-Zope@zope.orghttp://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding!**(Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )-- Greg Fischer1st Byte Solutionshttp://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Greg Fischer schrieb: ... I like what you said, be tolerant. Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good. I don't I see we have to improve teaching. think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it. Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do. Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP. There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML. I don't want to pursue a development platform You can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its really kinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ... that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it. That might not be the case, might be totally false. But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it. I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworks to work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template language and people would fall in love with it. BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML. DTML would be replaced by application logic in python or python scripts and ZPT together. No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should find better ways to teach people how to easy develope in Zope. ++Tino ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
>From Tino: --No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we shouldfind better ways to teach people how to easy develope inZope.--Yes, you are right on all you mention. I didn't know PT was available in other environments/languages. Interesting. However, I still don't want to use them. Doesn't mean that someday I wont find a need and desire for it though. The reason I don't use PT is because I can do what I want without it. You mention that better ways to teach is needed, and you are right about that, but when someone like me has no desire to learn it, then it wont help. Worth noting though, I have looked at it briefly, and it confused the hell out of me. So, you may be right on anyway, because if it were explained in a such a way that caused me to just *get it*, then maybe I would go that route. I guess it's really a matter of, do I want to spend the time to learn something when I am loaded with other things to learn all the time, and why fix it if it isnt broke? (broke from my perspective ,that is.) Well, why can't there also be good training on DTML as well? (actually, I don't thinks it's all that bad anyway.) And, like Gary asked, why can't there be a peaceful coexistence bewteen the ZPT and DTML fans? The reason why I ask? Because there is commonley someone saying *DTML sucks, use PT* when users ask questions about DTML. (maybe not in those words, but you get the idea.) I don't know. I do appreciate your responses and thoughts Tino. (as you have always done for me in the past)GregOn 1/16/06, Tino Wildenhain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Greg Fischer schrieb: ... I like what you said, be tolerant.Some of us don't see the limitations of DTML as something that is broken, or that it is not good.I don'tI see we have to improve teaching. think there is anything wrong with ZPT either, I simply don't have a use for it.Coexist? Yes, I hope they always do. Personally, I am doing more and more with PHP.There are multiple reasons for that, but partly it is due to a conception in the Zope community that DTML is bad, and as such, it might go away. The *hype* is all about ZPT, not DTML.I don't want to pursue a development platformYou can have PT with PHP too. Thats the cool part about it. Its reallykinda standard. You have PT for Zope, PHP, Perl, Java, ... that is a foundation of my applications on something that is going away, or even hinting to it.That might not be the case, might be totally false.But we cant deny the fact that if there is no hype, then there is no attention to it, and less people will use it and even less will support it.I dont think thats the problem. I saw even weirder frameworksto work with. I guess we could introduce an even suckier template language and people would fall in love with it.BTW: ZPT is not, and was never a replacement for DTML.DTML would be replaced by application logic in pythonor python scripts and ZPT together.No matter if DTML is still there (and it will) we should find better ways to teach people how to easy develope inZope.++Tino-- Greg Fischer1st Byte Solutionshttp://www.1stbyte.com ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
On Mon, 2006-01-09 at 14:29 +0100, Garito wrote: I thing DTML and ZClasses will disapear someday You think, I hope :-) -- A powerfull GroupWare, CMS, CRM, ECM: CPS (Open Source GPL). Opengroupware, SPIP, Plone, PhpBB, JetSpeed... are good: CPS is better. http://www.cps-project.org for downloads documentation. Free hosting of CPS groupware: http://www.objectis.org. ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 10.41/04.00] Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Jonathan escribió: To pour fuel on the flames... +1 DTML -1 ZPT Why... 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works! 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach. 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products. ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach. I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-) If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history. Just my 1-1/2 cents. Jonathan - Original Message - *From:* Greg Fischer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *Cc:* zope@zope.org mailto:zope@zope.org *Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM *Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now! Yes, we need hype! And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features built-in? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org http://Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org http://Zope.orgcould use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large dtml sucks attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big wish of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents. Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 2006 http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/ 6000+ Sites
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
On 9 Jan 2006, at 13:29, Garito wrote: 13 KB deleted Please clean up the subject line to remove your spam filter's markings before you reply. And don't quote a whole long discussion including countless message footers only to add one line to the bottom. Thanks! jens ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Yes, we need hype! And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features built-in? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large dtml sucks attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big wish of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 2006http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/6000+ Sites in 2002http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ Happy new year everyone!On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do we know Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality. Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of get started information. Two Cents, -Jon Gert Thiel wrote: Dear friends.A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind interms of attention and recognized widespread. Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyonespeaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about theshortcommings of J2EE.Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org.Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Havea look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have anylook at zope.org ‹ where isŠ You got it.To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel itspower before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls atthe very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:Make them love Zope at the very first look:* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Greg Fischer wrote: Yes, we need hype! And a hot looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features built-in? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org http://Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org http://Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large dtml sucks attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big wish of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents. Hi! concerning the web based IDE I'm currently working on something like what you describe for Zope3. You should get on the z3lab-list. You can also get a blog on z3lab.org and post flash animations: http://www.z3lab.org/ http://lists.nuxeo.com/mailman/listinfo/z3lab Regards /JM ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
To pour fuel on the flames... +1 DTML -1 ZPT Why... 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototypingDTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it isfast, easy, reasonably robustandit works! 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach. 3) For client-side functionality/controlI prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of _javascript_/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products. ZPT is a bit of a hybrid whichincreases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation isbetter achievedwith an AJAX type of approach. I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the futureimho:-) If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history. Just my 1-1/2 cents. Jonathan - Original Message - From: Greg Fischer Cc: zope@zope.org Sent: Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now! Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features. Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these features "built-in"? And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right on Zope.org, but I always find more on individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little flashy too. The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they will download it. I did. Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it. So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a *complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we would have a KILLER APP! Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! 42000+ Sites in 2006http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/6000+ Sites in 2002http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/ Happy new year everyone! On 1/3/06, Jonathan Cyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do we know Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Jonathan wrote: To pour fuel on the flames... +1 DTML -1 ZPT Why... 1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works! 2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach. 3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach using a combination of _javascript_/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side python scripts/external methods/products. ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of approach. I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the future imho :-) If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick dirty' demos feasible, in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history. Just my 1-1/2 cents. Jonathan - Origin Think about it: we argue about Z Classes vs DTML vs ZPT + python scripts vs Products. Its all good. Zope + 1 :-) David ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Do we know Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is there any connection? Zope.org seems to have been built as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality. Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started" information. Two Cents, -Jon Gert Thiel wrote: Dear friends. A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release. At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in terms of attention and recognized widespread. Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the shortcommings of J2EE. Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why? Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at zope.org. Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have a look at rubyonrails.org and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any look at zope.org where is You got it. To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant. Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE? Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever: Make them love Zope at the very first look: * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling of success. Bribe the managers: * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access. * Include powerful XML processing facilities and * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services. Enable the beginners: * Easy to read and understand but still complete and current documentation is a must. * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats, mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at one central location. Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the framework but from its community. And of course make Zope 4 even better. Regards, Gert http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/ ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Jonathan Cyr http://www.cyr.info http://www.weddingweblog.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
