Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-05 Thread Chris Withers

Dennis Allison wrote:

Dieter's point about not includeing the traceback makes sense
if all it does is report on the reporting code.


Yeah, the traceback just shows where the ConflictError was raised, not 
what caused it, and theyr'e always in very different places...



Wlorent, do you envision a single ConflicError or two -- one which
succeeds on retry and another where the retry fails?


Huh?

ConflictErrors are ConflictErrors, it's a "server" level decision as to 
how they're handled. Zope chooses to retry the whole request up to 3 
times when a ConflictError occurs.


The new logging code I put in records exactly how many conflicts have 
occurrred, and how many remain unresolved even after 3 retries.


I know you've been having fun with this type of error, so you might well 
want to grav the changes from svn and give them a spin...


cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-05 Thread Chris Withers

Florent Guillaume wrote:


If you look at the way their purpose is explained in zLOG, you'll see  
that level INFO is reserved for things like server startup and  
shutdown. 


You must be one of the few humans who's ever read that documentation ;-)

recurring that can happen many times in the life of the server but  does 
not pose any problems should *not* be visible at INFO.


What part of "if enough conflicts are showing up in the logs that 
they're a hassle, then you have a problem" are you not understanding? ;-)


On the other hand, that's exactly what BLATHER is for folks! Use it!  


Everyone and their dog gets logged at BLATHER. It's not reasonable to 
obscure everything in the logs by having to turn on BLATHER logging just 
to get critical information about the performance of your app server.


Note that it's another reason for not using the default python  loggers 
who have a stupidly small number of levels.


They have as many levels as you want to set up. The python logging 
package is _extremely_ well thought out. You do know that zLOG is just a 
wrapper around the python loggers now, right?


If you want to audit your server status to see if there are changes  
real errors will happen, INFO is *not* the level to use.


urm?

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-04 Thread Dennis Allison

Dieter's point about not includeing the traceback makes sense
if all it does is report on the reporting code.

Wlorent, do you envision a single ConflicError or two -- one which
succeeds on retry and another where the retry fails?


On Sun, 4 Dec 2005, Dieter Maurer wrote:

> Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-2 22:59 +0100:
> > ...
> >If you look at the way their purpose is explained in zLOG, you'll see  
> >that level INFO is reserved for things like server startup and  
> >shutdown.
> >Or, as shown above, initial mounting of databases. Anything  
> >recurring that can happen many times in the life of the server but  
> >does not pose any problems should *not* be visible at INFO.
> 
> Really?
> 
> You infer that from the
> 
>   "INFO  For things like startup and shutdown", do you?
> 
> That's very weak reasoning...
> 
>   The level obviously has an importance association:
>   higher values indicate higher importance.
> 
> 
> If fact, the "ConflictError" messages should not be reported
> at "INFO" but at level "PROBLEM" because
> 
>they are not causing any immediate problems, but
>deserve attention.
> 
> >On the other hand, that's exactly what BLATHER is for folks! Use it!  
> 
> You see it this way. I do not:
> 
>   "ConflictError"s are definitely as important as mount
>   messages and therefore should be reported on at least
>   the level of mount reports: i.e. at INFO or above.
> 
> 

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-04 Thread Dieter Maurer
Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-2 22:59 +0100:
> ...
>If you look at the way their purpose is explained in zLOG, you'll see  
>that level INFO is reserved for things like server startup and  
>shutdown.
>Or, as shown above, initial mounting of databases. Anything  
>recurring that can happen many times in the life of the server but  
>does not pose any problems should *not* be visible at INFO.

Really?

You infer that from the

  "INFO  For things like startup and shutdown", do you?

That's very weak reasoning...

  The level obviously has an importance association:
  higher values indicate higher importance.


If fact, the "ConflictError" messages should not be reported
at "INFO" but at level "PROBLEM" because

   they are not causing any immediate problems, but
   deserve attention.

>On the other hand, that's exactly what BLATHER is for folks! Use it!  

You see it this way. I do not:

  "ConflictError"s are definitely as important as mount
  messages and therefore should be reported on at least
  the level of mount reports: i.e. at INFO or above.

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Chris Withers

Paul Winkler wrote:


I'm +1 on having failed retries show up at level ERROR.


With Florent's changes you get 'em twice, with mine, you get 'em once ;-)


I'm neutral on having successful retries show up at level INFO, BLATHER,
or in some other log handler entirely.  Conflict errors are a pretty
small part of my world and I don't really have a strong opinion on this
part of the debate, and I don't have time to review either of
your patches.


Well, if you ever run into performance problems, you might care about 
them...


Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Florent Guillaume

On 2 Dec 2005, at 20:50, Dieter Maurer wrote:


Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-2 13:33 +0100:

...
Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an
ERROR that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such.


I strongly disagree with you:

  "ConflictError"s are essential hints that your system might
  come into trouble (they can turn into real error).

  These hints are at least as important as e.g.

2005-12-02T07:17:59 INFO ZODB.Mount Opening database for mounting:  
'144160968_1010482273.050062'

--
2005-12-02T07:17:59 INFO ZODB.Mount Mounted database  
'144160968_1010482273.050062' at /temp_folder


  Looks like "INFO" is a better level than "BLATHER"...



If you look at the way their purpose is explained in zLOG, you'll see  
that level INFO is reserved for things like server startup and  
shutdown. Or, as shown above, initial mounting of databases. Anything  
recurring that can happen many times in the life of the server but  
does not pose any problems should *not* be visible at INFO.


On the other hand, that's exactly what BLATHER is for folks! Use it!  
Note that it's another reason for not using the default python  
loggers who have a stupidly small number of levels.


If you want to audit your server status to see if there are changes  
real errors will happen, INFO is *not* the level to use.


Anyway, there's sufficient disagreement here, I'll send another mail  
to ask for people's votes.


Florent

--
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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Florent Guillaume

On 2 Dec 2005, at 20:40, Dieter Maurer wrote:

Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-1 19:49 +0100:

I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.

http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev

Now you'll get two things:
- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore  
and is

returned to the browser as an error.


Apparently, you stopped following our thread (you, Chris, me):

  In my view, a "ConflictError" observed by the user
  should be treated exactly like any other exception observed by  
the user:

  it should go through the "error_log" and "standard_error_message".


That's what my patch did.


  It might be logged (when the user decides that exceptions seen
  by the user should be logged).


I can agree with that.


  The approach to achieve this it to fix a bug in Zope's
  "zpublisher_exception_hook", not to add an explicit log
  when the final retry fails (though the extra log entry
  will not hurt significantly).


The patch I did included the fix you proposed in the patch in the  
mailing list archives based on the collector entry.


Florent

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Dieter Maurer
Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-2 13:33 +0100:
> ...
>Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either  
>something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an  
>ERROR that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such.

I strongly disagree with you:

  "ConflictError"s are essential hints that your system might
  come into trouble (they can turn into real error).

  These hints are at least as important as e.g.

2005-12-02T07:17:59 INFO ZODB.Mount Opening database for mounting: 
'144160968_1010482273.050062'
--
2005-12-02T07:17:59 INFO ZODB.Mount Mounted database 
'144160968_1010482273.050062' at /temp_folder

  Looks like "INFO" is a better level than "BLATHER"...

-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Dieter Maurer
Florent Guillaume wrote at 2005-12-1 19:49 +0100:
>I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.
>
>http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev
>
>Now you'll get two things:
>- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
>- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore and is 
>returned to the browser as an error.

Apparently, you stopped following our thread (you, Chris, me):

  In my view, a "ConflictError" observed by the user
  should be treated exactly like any other exception observed by the user:
  it should go through the "error_log" and "standard_error_message".
  It might be logged (when the user decides that exceptions seen
  by the user should be logged).

  The approach to achieve this it to fix a bug in Zope's
  "zpublisher_exception_hook", not to add an explicit log
  when the final retry fails (though the extra log entry
  will not hurt significantly).


-- 
Dieter
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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Paul Winkler
On Fri, Dec 02, 2005 at 02:09:56PM +0100, Florent Guillaume wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2005, at 11:09, Chris Withers wrote:
> >I was planning on rolling my changes out to 2.8, 2.9 and the trunk.  
> >Unless anyone strenuously objects, I still intend to do that. I  
> >cleaned up a lot of the code and made a few other changes that  
> >generally improve logging.
> 
> I strenuously object to you overwriting without consultation code I  
> just checked in and that was approved by at least 3 people.

I'm +1 on having failed retries show up at level ERROR.

I'm neutral on having successful retries show up at level INFO, BLATHER,
or in some other log handler entirely.  Conflict errors are a pretty
small part of my world and I don't really have a strong opinion on this
part of the debate, and I don't have time to review either of
your patches.

-- 

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Jens Vagelpohl


On 2 Dec 2005, at 14:16, Chris Withers wrote:
Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either   
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an   
ERROR that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such.


Not so. If I'm getting 1,000 resolved conflict errors a day, that  
can be a big performance hit, and there are those of us who have  
hard performance targets to meet ;-) Turning on debug logging is,  
in itself, a performance hit, so I don't want to have to do that on  
a production service where I want to observe the number of conflict  
errors occurring over a long period of time, like, say, a month.


I agree with this argumentation. It is true that conflicts are a  
normal part of operation, as we all like to tell people who are  
scared/confused by them, but if you see so many that it bothers you  
seeing it at INFO level you know you have a problem that needs fixing.


Same is true for the panicking sysadmins that call up the developers.  
If they call because of that they should have gotten better training  
before starting to admin Zope setups, or they shouldn't be doing it  
at all.


jens

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Chris Withers

Florent Guillaume wrote:
Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either  
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an  ERROR 
that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such. INFO sucks for  recurring 
stuff like that that in addition contain the word "error"  which it 
isn't. I can't count the number of sysadmin/customers/ hosting providers 
that freak out when something like that appears in  the log and call us 
and we have to explain that yes, it's not logical  but...


It just occurred to me, if you have these kind of problems, tell them to 
change their log level in Zope.conf to 'warn' and then they won't see 
anything unless they really have to deal with it...


Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Chris Withers

Florent Guillaume wrote:
Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either  
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an  ERROR 
that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such. 


Incidentally, your changes result in most users seeing two errors in 
their logs when they should just see one. I'm not aware of many serious 
users who don't copy the output of the error_log object to the event 
log, so with your changes, you'll end up with the error that ends up in 
the error_log, and your seperate LOG call's message.


cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Chris Withers

Florent Guillaume wrote:
It doesn't really matter, zLOG has a compatibility layer that ends up  
doing the same thing.


python's logging module has a cleaner, nicer syntax.

Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either  
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an  ERROR 
that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such. 


Not so. If I'm getting 1,000 resolved conflict errors a day, that can be 
a big performance hit, and there are those of us who have hard 
performance targets to meet ;-) Turning on debug logging is, in itself, 
a performance hit, so I don't want to have to do that on a production 
service where I want to observe the number of conflict errors occurring 
over a long period of time, like, say, a month.


INFO sucks for  recurring 
stuff like that that in addition contain the word "error"  which it 
isn't.


Well, that's a problem with the exception naming, and I agree with you, 
but I don't know how hard that is to change.


I can't count the number of sysadmin/customers/ hosting providers 
that freak out when something like that appears in  the log and call us 
and we have to explain that yes, it's not logical  but...


Stupid sysadmins can't be helped. It's being logged at INFO, not ERROR 
or WARNING. I agree, the exception should be renamed to just Conflict, 
but that's a totally different discussion.


Well, I told you on the list that I was already working on this. You  
didn't pay attention I guess.


You made a vague comment on the 21st Nov.
I made a definite commitment on the 24th Nov.
On the 25th, you said you were working on it in response to my question.
Now, by yesterday, 6 days later, nothing had happened, so I fixed this 
and did some other work with stupid error messages along the way.

Then, suddenly, yesterday you commit. *sigh*

Anyway, I'm going to check in the changes because they're materially the 
same but the code is cleaner.


Whether resolved conflict errors are logged at INFO or DEBUG is a 
seperate discussion and one which I'd like to see a lot more comments on 
than have been seen so far. The +1s from people yesterday were about the 
general merging of the fix to 2.8, which I would also +1 to ;-)


However, changing from INFO to DEBUG is a change in functionality which 
_I_ strenuously object to. People _need_ to be aware that they are 
seeing conflict errors, even if they are resolved. I, for one, really 
really want to be able to look in the event log and see if _any_ 
conflict errors are occurring, resolved or not, and keep track of the 
number of them so I can spot any performance hotspots before they become 
critical. FWIW, the stuff I log at INFO makes it clearer as to which 
conflicts are resolved or not, so your sysadmin types should be happier.


What do people other than Florent, whose view I think we know, feel 
about this?


cheers,

Chris

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Florent Guillaume

On 2 Dec 2005, at 11:09, Chris Withers wrote:
I was planning on rolling my changes out to 2.8, 2.9 and the trunk.  
Unless anyone strenuously objects, I still intend to do that. I  
cleaned up a lot of the code and made a few other changes that  
generally improve logging.


I strenuously object to you overwriting without consultation code I  
just checked in and that was approved by at least 3 people.


And I'm totally -1 on any logging at level INFO or above about  
retriable conflict errors.


Florent

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Florent Guillaume

On 2 Dec 2005, at 11:09, Chris Withers wrote:

Damn, I was working on this at the same time :-S

Florent Guillaume wrote:

I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.
http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev
Now you'll get two things:
- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore  
and is returned to the browser as an error.


In my work, I've actually changed this to use the new, proper  
logging calls. I'll be comitting later this morning.


It doesn't really matter, zLOG has a compatibility layer that ends up  
doing the same thing.


I removed the log at level INFO because it is very misleading for  
system administrators in my experience.


I don't think so, I've actually changed and enhanced this in my  
work. You now get a log at INFO whenever a conflict occurs. It  
includes more information than the old version, as you'll see...


Please no. Don't put anything at INFO. A conflict error is either  
something normal that should be at level BLATHER or below, or an  
ERROR that a sysadmin wants to see logged as such. INFO sucks for  
recurring stuff like that that in addition contain the word "error"  
which it isn't. I can't count the number of sysadmin/customers/ 
hosting providers that freak out when something like that appears in  
the log and call us and we have to explain that yes, it's not logical  
but...


Do people want this also for 2.8? Note that it changes the log  
format, so may break third party tools that parse logs.


I was planning on rolling my changes out to 2.8, 2.9 and the trunk.  
Unless anyone strenuously objects, I still intend to do that. I  
cleaned up a lot of the code and made a few other changes that  
generally improve logging.


It's a shame Florent and I were genuinely working on this at the  
same time without the other knowing...


Well, I told you on the list that I was already working on this. You  
didn't pay attention I guess.


Florent

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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-02 Thread Chris Withers

Hi Florent,

Damn, I was working on this at the same time :-S

Florent Guillaume wrote:

I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.

http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev

Now you'll get two things:
- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore and is 
returned to the browser as an error.


In my work, I've actually changed this to use the new, proper logging 
calls. I'll be comitting later this morning.


I removed the log at level INFO because it is very misleading for system 
administrators in my experience.


I don't think so, I've actually changed and enhanced this in my work. 
You now get a log at INFO whenever a conflict occurs. It includes more 
information than the old version, as you'll see...


Do people want this also for 2.8? Note that it changes the log format, 
so may break third party tools that parse logs.


I was planning on rolling my changes out to 2.8, 2.9 and the trunk. 
Unless anyone strenuously objects, I still intend to do that. I cleaned 
up a lot of the code and made a few other changes that generally improve 
logging.


It's a shame Florent and I were genuinely working on this at the same 
time without the other knowing...


cheers,

Chris

--
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Re: [Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-01 Thread Chris McDonough

+1

On Dec 1, 2005, at 1:49 PM, Florent Guillaume wrote:


I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.

http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev

Now you'll get two things:
- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore and  
is returned to the browser as an error.


I removed the log at level INFO because it is very misleading for  
system administrators in my experience.


Do people want this also for 2.8? Note that it changes the log  
format, so may break third party tools that parse logs.


Florent

--
Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France)   CTO, Director of R&D
+33 1 40 33 71 59   http://nuxeo.com   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Zope-dev] Logging of ConflictError

2005-12-01 Thread Florent Guillaume

I've improved the logging of ConflictError in Zope 2.9 and trunk.

http://svn.zope.org/?rev=40454&view=rev

Now you'll get two things:
- logs at level BLATHER for each conflict, but it may be retried
- log at level ERROR when the conflict can't be retried anymore and is 
returned to the browser as an error.


I removed the log at level INFO because it is very misleading for system 
administrators in my experience.


Do people want this also for 2.8? Note that it changes the log format, so 
may break third party tools that parse logs.


Florent

--
Florent Guillaume, Nuxeo (Paris, France)   CTO, Director of R&D
+33 1 40 33 71 59   http://nuxeo.com   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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