Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-18 Thread Michael Bernstein
Jim Fulton wrote:

Jim Fulton wrote:

The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?
+1

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  michaelbernstein.com
  Author of Zope Bible
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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Marius Gedminas wrote:
On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:06:37AM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:

What about renaming the Zope 3 zope package to "z".

Examples (from the buddydemo example):

 import z.interface
 from z.app import zapi
 from z.app.event import publish
 from z.app.event.objectevent import ObjectModifiedEvent


-1 for purely aesthetic reasons (IOW, I'm used to zope.something).
Is this really just a matter of what you're used to? If you didn't have
lots of experience typing "zope", would typing "z" instead really bother
you?
I actually like the z by itself.  Perhaps because it
echos the "circle z".  I think I also like it because it seems to add
less noise to the import lines.
For example, I think I actually prefer:

  import z.interface
  from z.app import zapi
  from z.app.event import publish
  from z.app.event.objectevent import ObjectModifiedEvent
to:

  import zope.interface
  from zope.app import zapi
  from zope.app.event import publish
  from zope.app.event.objectevent import ObjectModifiedEvent
Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Fred Drake
On Wednesday 14 April 2004 10:52 am, Jim Fulton wrote:
 > packages become very unsttractive. It turns out that pkgutil will be
 > confused by the Zope package on Windows or Mac OS, adding it's directory
 > to the zope package's path. This is a bug in pkgutil that can be fixed,
 > but it is an example of the sorts of problems we can expect.

I've filed a bug report on pkgutil:

http://www.python.org/sf/935117


  -Fred

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PythonLabs at Zope Corporation


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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Marius Gedminas
On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:06:37AM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
> What about renaming the Zope 3 zope package to "z".
> 
> Examples (from the buddydemo example):
> 
>   import z.interface
>   from z.app import zapi
>   from z.app.event import publish
>   from z.app.event.objectevent import ObjectModifiedEvent

-1 for purely aesthetic reasons (IOW, I'm used to zope.something).

Marius Gedminas

P.S.  I used to think ZOPE was a recursive acronym for the ZOPE Object
Publishing Environment.  
-- 
Favorite MS-DOS error message: "Drive C: not ready, close door."


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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:

...

Give the responses. I need to recast my question as a selection
among alternatives. But, before I do that, we will need to consider
alternatives a bit more.
OK, here's another.

What about renaming the Zope 3 zope package to "z".

- It fits with the expansion of "Zope":
  "Z Object Publishing Environment".
- It's short :)

- *At this time* (but after the move to svn), it's not too hard to make
  a change like this for Zope 3. Backward compatibility is not a big
  issue. This will change when X3.0 is released, which is why I'm
  bothering to deal with this now.
- This was suggested a couple of years ago when coming up with the
  Zope 3 package layout.
Examples (from the buddydemo example):

  import z.interface
  from z.app import zapi
  from z.app.event import publish
  from z.app.event.objectevent import ObjectModifiedEvent
Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Andrew Sawyers
Jim Fulton wrote:

The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?

+1

A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
agreement that this is a probelm. :)
Jim

Andrew

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:
Jim Fulton wrote:
...


I should have been clearer.

The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?

I haven't gotten as many responses on this as I expected.  I'll try to 
summarize
Wrong.  People don't find the question useful.

Give the responses. I need to recast my question as a selection
among alternatives. But, before I do that, we will need to consider
alternatives a bit more.
- Chris feels strongly that this is a problem

- I've been swayed by Chris' response from neutral to thinking that this
  is a problem.
In talking about this with Casey, Fred and Barry here, we thought of another
problem with the status quo.  The standard Python library has a module, pkgutil
that facilitates spreading container packages like zope over multiple directories
on the Python path. Thia facilitates installing zope-project packages in
different places. Without this, container packages become very unsttractive.
It turns out that pkgutil will be confused by the Zope package on Windows or Mac OS,
adding it's directory to the zope package's path. This is a bug in pkgutil that can
be fixed, but it is an example of the sorts of problems we can expect.
In addition, haveing two packages with the same name makes it hard to talk about
them verbally. One has to qualify the names, as in "big zope" or "little zope".
Jim

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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Stephan Richter
-1, it is not really a problem. As Chris pointed out, this will be hard to 
explain in documentation, but I think it will not be as big of a pain as 
requiring 3rd parties to change their code (this is for both, Zope 2 and 3). 
Furthermore, I really dislike the option of renaming "zope" in Zope 3 to 
something else. 

If you have a directory structure like

lib/python
  Zope
  zope3/zope

where both, 'lib/python' and 'lib/python/zope3' are in the path, then this is 
pretty obvious. I think that only advanced Zope 2.8+ programmers will want to 
use both Zope 2 and 3 functionality, so that educating them about this is 
much easier than educating the scripter.

Regards,
Stephan

On Wednesday 14 April 2004 09:00, Jim Fulton wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
> > Zope 2 has a package named "Zope". Zope 3 has a package named "zope".
> > Starting with Zope 2.8, parts of Zope 3 will be included in Zope 2.
> > As things stand, this will require having both "Zope" and "zope"
> > packages. Python can handle this fine, however, it will require putting
> > the packages in separate directories (for Windows).  A typical Zope
> > installation will probably add at least two directories to the Python
> > path, for:
> >
> > - The Zope software
> >
> > - Instance (site) specific packages
> >
> > So adding two directories, rather than one for the Zope software isn't
> > a big deal.
> >
> > Of course, having two packages with names differing only in case is a
> > bit ugly.
> >
> > Do we want to consider renaming one or both of these packages
> > to avoid the conflict?
>
> I should have been clearer.
>
> The first question is:
>
> Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?
>
> I haven't gotten as many responses on this as I expected.  I'll try to
> summarize so far:
>
> - Chris feels strongly that this is a problem
>
> - I've been swayed by Chris' response from neutral to thinking that this
>is a problem.
>
> - Tres seems not to think this is a problem, but I'm not sure.
>
> - Fred doesn't seem to think this is a problem.
>
> - I can't tell from Robert's and Stephans responses whether they think this
>is a problem or not.
>
> Perhaps we can get more input on whether there's a problem.
>
> A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
> agreement that this is a probelm. :)
>
> Jim

-- 
Stephan Richter
CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student)
Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Fred Drake
On Wednesday 14 April 2004 09:54 am, Kapil Thangavelu wrote:
 > its probably a problem imo for mac users who are on a case insensitive
 > fs.

Is this still an issue for Mac OS X, or is your concern for classic Mac OS?  I 
don't know if we support that (simply because I've never heard anyone mention 
it).

 > none of the alternative seem all that appealing though.. the comment

No, they don't.  The current Zope 3 naming for modules and packages mostly 
follows the current BDFL recommendations, which is nice, and is friendly to 
to those of use alergic to upper case letters.  It also works well for 
case-senseless filesystems.

 > about most z3 imports being prefixed with zope, suggests that any
 > backwards porting with a goal of forward compatibility will require
 > changing the existing z2 Zope package to something else, although
 > sticking version numbers on package names doesn't hold much appeal for
 > me. perhaps renaming z2 Zope->Core

The Zope 2 "Zope" package is actually quite small.  Perhaps renaming it is the 
best approach.  In spite of Tres's objection, I don't see how there could be 
all that much code that references it.  Perhaps it's referenced by some 
persistent objects?  There's an uncertain comment in Zope.ClassFactory, and 
Zope.App.ClassFactory might be referenced, but otherwise the Zope package 
contains startup code.


  -Fred

-- 
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PythonLabs at Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Kapil Thangavelu wrote:
On Wed, 2004-04-14 at 09:00, Jim Fulton wrote:


The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?



Perhaps we can get more input on whether there's a problem.

A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
agreement that this is a probelm. :)


+1 

its probably a problem imo for mac users who are on a case insensitive
fs. 

none of the alternative seem all that appealing though..
Thanks  for the input.

I'd prefer to defer discussion on alternatives until we determine whether
there is a problem we want to fix.
Jim

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Re: [Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Kapil Thangavelu
On Wed, 2004-04-14 at 09:00, Jim Fulton wrote:

> The first question is:
> 
> Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?
> 

> 
> Perhaps we can get more input on whether there's a problem.
>
> A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
> agreement that this is a probelm. :)

+1 

its probably a problem imo for mac users who are on a case insensitive
fs. 

none of the alternative seem all that appealing though.. the comment
about most z3 imports being prefixed with zope, suggests that any
backwards porting with a goal of forward compatibility will require
changing the existing z2 Zope package to something else, although
sticking version numbers on package names doesn't hold much appeal for
me. perhaps renaming z2 Zope->Core

-kapil


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[Zope-dev] Re: [Zope3-dev] Zope and zope

2004-04-14 Thread Jim Fulton
Jim Fulton wrote:
Zope 2 has a package named "Zope". Zope 3 has a package named "zope".
Starting with Zope 2.8, parts of Zope 3 will be included in Zope 2.
As things stand, this will require having both "Zope" and "zope" packages.
Python can handle this fine, however, it will require putting the packages
in separate directories (for Windows).  A typical Zope installation will
probably add at least two directories to the Python path, for:
- The Zope software

- Instance (site) specific packages

So adding two directories, rather than one for the Zope software isn't
a big deal.
Of course, having two packages with names differing only in case is a
bit ugly.
Do we want to consider renaming one or both of these packages
to avoid the conflict?
I should have been clearer.

The first question is:

Is it a problem to have two packages with names differing only in case?

I haven't gotten as many responses on this as I expected.  I'll try to summarize
so far:
- Chris feels strongly that this is a problem

- I've been swayed by Chris' response from neutral to thinking that this
  is a problem.
- Tres seems not to think this is a problem, but I'm not sure.

- Fred doesn't seem to think this is a problem.

- I can't tell from Robert's and Stephans responses whether they think this
  is a problem or not.
Perhaps we can get more input on whether there's a problem.

A response with a positive sign (e.g. +1, +0, +2, ...) indicates
agreement that this is a probelm. :)
Jim

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