Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Christophe Combelles

Christophe Combelles a écrit :

Hi,

It seems that the 'versions' information in a buildout has a priority 
over 'develop'?


What I wanted is to use the exact versions of the KGS:
extends = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg
versions = versions

Then for a particular egg (say, z3c.menu), use a develop-egg instead:
develop = . z3c.menu

However the develop-egg is never used, because of the version information.


My dev-egg was not used because its version was higher than was indicated in the 
kgs, then buildout was eventually choosing the first egg that did correspond to 
the version, i.e the shared egg, and not the dev-egg.
I just have to add a single version information for my develop-egg to override 
the one from the kgs.

[versions]
z3c.menu = version of my dev egg

(Thanks to Aaron for the tip.)




Shouldn't the 'develop' directive have a priority?
Or is there another way to to what I want?

thanks,
Christophe
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Jim Fulton


On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Christophe Combelles wrote:


Hi,

It seems that the 'versions' information in a buildout has a  
priority over 'develop'?


Yup


What I wanted is to use the exact versions of the KGS:
extends = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg
versions = versions

Then for a particular egg (say, z3c.menu), use a develop-egg instead:
develop = . z3c.menu

However the develop-egg is never used, because of the version  
information.


Shouldn't the 'develop' directive have a priority?


Martijn Faassen thinks so:

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/zc.buildout/+bug/164043

Despite my response to him, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm curious what  
other people think,



Or is there another way to to what I want?



As you found out, you can simply override the version in your buildout/

Jim

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AW: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi Jim

 Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict
 
 
 On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
 
  Hi,
 
  It seems that the 'versions' information in a buildout has 
 a priority 
  over 'develop'?
 
 Yup
 
  What I wanted is to use the exact versions of the KGS:
  extends = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg
  versions = versions
 
  Then for a particular egg (say, z3c.menu), use a 
 develop-egg instead:
  develop = . z3c.menu
 
  However the develop-egg is never used, because of the version 
  information.
 
  Shouldn't the 'develop' directive have a priority?
 
 Martijn Faassen thinks so:
 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/zc.buildout/+bug/164043
 
 Despite my response to him, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm 
 curious what other people think,
 
  Or is there another way to to what I want?

The develop folder is the folder for development eggs. If versions
forces to use other eggs, then it doesn't make sense to me.

In general I trust on what you are doing, but I'm not always 
sure what the real motivation is behind the concept ;-)
Probably there is a reason which I don't know about.

What do you mean by:

develop eggs are also used for many system package installs :(

 As you found out, you can simply override the version in your 
 buildout/

Only for development, it doesn't make sense this duplicated 
definition. It sound like a additionl seatbelt. For what is this
double definition good for? Or is this based on some implementation
details?

Regards
Roger Ineichen

 Jim
 
 --
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 Zope Corporation
 
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Christophe Combelles

Jim Fulton a écrit :


On Feb 22, 2008, at 7:23 PM, Christophe Combelles wrote:


Hi,

It seems that the 'versions' information in a buildout has a priority 
over 'develop'?


Yup


What I wanted is to use the exact versions of the KGS:
extends = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg
versions = versions

Then for a particular egg (say, z3c.menu), use a develop-egg instead:
develop = . z3c.menu

However the develop-egg is never used, because of the version 
information.


Shouldn't the 'develop' directive have a priority?


Martijn Faassen thinks so:

  https://bugs.launchpad.net/zc.buildout/+bug/164043

Despite my response to him, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm curious what 
other people think,



Or is there another way to to what I want?



As you found out, you can simply override the version in your buildout/


I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout and the 
develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it more logical to give priority to 
'develop':
'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing a setup.py, so when 
defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want *that* path, 
whathever version this develop-egg defines.


Christophe



Jim

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Re: AW: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Jim Fulton


On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:14 AM, Roger Ineichen wrote:
...

What do you mean by:

develop eggs are also used for many system package installs :(


See: http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/setuptools#install-command

This is the technique that Ubuntu uses to install eggs into the Ubuntu  
system Python.  The eggs are unpacked into site-packages, so all eggs  
use a common source directory rather than each having a separate zip  
file or directory.  Setuptools marks these as develop eggs.  Buildout  
can't easily tell these apart from normal develop eggs. I find this to  
be very annoying.


I could probably make buildout treat develop eggs with links in the  
develop-eggs directory differently.



As you found out, you can simply override the version in your
buildout/


Only for development, it doesn't make sense this duplicated
definition.


Martijn agrees with you. I'm on the fence.


It sound like a additionl seatbelt.


Or sit up.


For what is this
double definition good for? Or is this based on some implementation
details?


It's mainly a matter of explicit is better than implicit, but it comes  
down to the meaning of the versions option.


Jim

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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Jim Fulton


On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout  
and the develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it more logical  
to give priority to 'develop':
'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing a setup.py,  
so when defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want  
*that* path, whathever version this develop-egg defines.


That is the philosophy that buildout takes. That's why, when picking  
versions, buildout prefers develop eggs over newer non-develop eggs.   
However, buildout will only use a develop egg if it satisfies stated  
requirements.  As it stands today, specifying a version in a versions  
section is like stating a == requirement in a setup script or in a  
eggs option.


Jim

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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread David Pratt
Hi. I agree with Jim. Buildout is doing the right thing. This is not a 
conflict since you have explicitly identified the software with a 
version already. I think the right thing to do under the circumstances 
would be to append a custom versions.cfg to nail the versions you want. 
KGS versions is a point in time list and it does not apply to the full 
scope of what buildout is being used for. I believe this should be kept 
in mind since it serves more than z3.


Changes to buildout to have it automatically do the 'right' thing opens 
the implicit versus explicit argument. A developer would then need to be 
aware of the implicit cases that would cause a different software 
selection. Much like zcml configuration in zope, I want to tell buildout 
what to do and have it do it without surprise (or for that matter 
fighting any implicit nature folks may be inclined to give it). While I 
understand the concern about the development egg for your build, I would 
see any move in this direction as corrupting the nature of buildout to 
'do what you have told it to do'.


Regards,
David


Jim Fulton wrote:


On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout and 
the develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it more logical to 
give priority to 'develop':
'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing a setup.py, 
so when defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want 
*that* path, whathever version this develop-egg defines.


That is the philosophy that buildout takes. That's why, when picking 
versions, buildout prefers develop eggs over newer non-develop eggs.  
However, buildout will only use a develop egg if it satisfies stated 
requirements.  As it stands today, specifying a version in a versions 
section is like stating a == requirement in a setup script or in a eggs 
option.


Jim

--
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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Christophe Combelles

David Pratt a écrit :
Hi. I agree with Jim. Buildout is doing the right thing. This is not a 
conflict since you have explicitly identified the software with a 
version already. I think the right thing to do under the circumstances 
would be to append a custom versions.cfg to nail the versions you want. 
KGS versions is a point in time list and it does not apply to the full 
scope of what buildout is being used for. I believe this should be kept 
in mind since it serves more than z3.


Changes to buildout to have it automatically do the 'right' thing opens 
the implicit versus explicit argument. A developer would then need to be 
aware of the implicit cases that would cause a different software 
selection. Much like zcml configuration in zope, I want to tell buildout 
what to do and have it do it without surprise (or for that matter 
fighting any implicit nature folks may be inclined to give it). While I 
understand the concern about the development egg for your build, I would 
see any move in this direction as corrupting the nature of buildout to 
'do what you have told it to do'.



Hi,

I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, because there are 
two explicit configurations: one explicit 'version', and one explicit 'develop'.
I think the question is about what to choose between two explicit configurations 
that are potentially conflicting.


There can be arguments for giving priority on one of them.
Maybe the best thing here would be to just warn the user (in stdout) about the 
conflict. Buildout should tell him that either the specified version won't be 
used, or the develop-egg won't be used.


regards
Christophe




Regards,
David


Jim Fulton wrote:


On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout and 
the develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it more logical to 
give priority to 'develop':
'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing a setup.py, 
so when defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want 
*that* path, whathever version this develop-egg defines.


That is the philosophy that buildout takes. That's why, when picking 
versions, buildout prefers develop eggs over newer non-develop eggs.  
However, buildout will only use a develop egg if it satisfies stated 
requirements.  As it stands today, specifying a version in a versions 
section is like stating a == requirement in a setup script or in a 
eggs option.


Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Wichert Akkerman
Previously Christophe Combelles wrote:
 David Pratt a écrit :
 Hi. I agree with Jim. Buildout is doing the right thing. This is not a 
 conflict since you have explicitly identified the software with a 
 version already. I think the right thing to do under the circumstances 
 would be to append a custom versions.cfg to nail the versions you want. 
 KGS versions is a point in time list and it does not apply to the full 
 scope of what buildout is being used for. I believe this should be kept 
 in mind since it serves more than z3.
 
 Changes to buildout to have it automatically do the 'right' thing opens 
 the implicit versus explicit argument. A developer would then need to be 
 aware of the implicit cases that would cause a different software 
 selection. Much like zcml configuration in zope, I want to tell buildout 
 what to do and have it do it without surprise (or for that matter 
 fighting any implicit nature folks may be inclined to give it). While I 
 understand the concern about the development egg for your build, I would 
 see any move in this direction as corrupting the nature of buildout to 
 'do what you have told it to do'.
 
 
 Hi,
 
 I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, because there 
 are two explicit configurations: one explicit 'version', and one explicit 
 'develop'.
 I think the question is about what to choose between two explicit 
 configurations that are potentially conflicting.

I'ld disgraee. To me 'develop=' is just a way to tell buildout that it
can also use a local development egg in addition to everything it can
find on remote indexes. It just extends the list of places where packages
can be found but does not change any rules for selecting the version to
use.

It's perfectly possibly to have a local development egg with an exact
revision number which you select in a version part in buildout.cfg.

Wichert.

-- 
Wichert Akkerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is simple to make things.
http://www.wiggy.net/   It is hard to make things simple.
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread David Pratt
Hi Christophe. Wichert has just responded with the point I was going to 
make in reply. I can agree with your point that emitting warnings are 
helpful for misconfiguration or if there has been duplication. I am 
opposed to incorporating the type of automatic character that has been 
suggested.


Regards,
David

Christophe Combelles wrote:

David Pratt a écrit :
Hi. I agree with Jim. Buildout is doing the right thing. This is not a 
conflict since you have explicitly identified the software with a 
version already. I think the right thing to do under the circumstances 
would be to append a custom versions.cfg to nail the versions you 
want. KGS versions is a point in time list and it does not apply to 
the full scope of what buildout is being used for. I believe this 
should be kept in mind since it serves more than z3.


Changes to buildout to have it automatically do the 'right' thing 
opens the implicit versus explicit argument. A developer would then 
need to be aware of the implicit cases that would cause a different 
software selection. Much like zcml configuration in zope, I want to 
tell buildout what to do and have it do it without surprise (or for 
that matter fighting any implicit nature folks may be inclined to give 
it). While I understand the concern about the development egg for your 
build, I would see any move in this direction as corrupting the nature 
of buildout to 'do what you have told it to do'.



Hi,

I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, because 
there are two explicit configurations: one explicit 'version', and one 
explicit 'develop'.
I think the question is about what to choose between two explicit 
configurations that are potentially conflicting.


There can be arguments for giving priority on one of them.
Maybe the best thing here would be to just warn the user (in stdout) 
about the conflict. Buildout should tell him that either the specified 
version won't be used, or the develop-egg won't be used.


regards
Christophe




Regards,
David


Jim Fulton wrote:


On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout 
and the develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it more logical 
to give priority to 'develop':
'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing a setup.py, 
so when defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want 
*that* path, whathever version this develop-egg defines.


That is the philosophy that buildout takes. That's why, when picking 
versions, buildout prefers develop eggs over newer non-develop eggs.  
However, buildout will only use a develop egg if it satisfies stated 
requirements.  As it stands today, specifying a version in a versions 
section is like stating a == requirement in a setup script or in a 
eggs option.


Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation


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AW: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Roger Ineichen
Hi all

 Betreff: Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

[...]

 I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, 
 because there are two explicit configurations: one explicit 
 'version', and one explicit 'develop'.
 I think the question is about what to choose between two 
 explicit configurations that are potentially conflicting.
 
 There can be arguments for giving priority on one of them.
 Maybe the best thing here would be to just warn the user (in 
 stdout) about the conflict. Buildout should tell him that 
 either the specified version won't be used, or the 
 develop-egg won't be used.

For me it's simple, I like to define develop packages 
and I'm confused if this eggs are not used. I never develop 
on different versions? Does anybody need to develop on 
versions? If so this is the only reason why version 
should affect develop configuration.

I really don't understand what development has to do with
versions at all. If I develop a egg, I link then into the 
develop folder because I need that egg as a new develop dependency
because it offers a new version which is not availble in any version
or somewhere except in the repository.

Add additional configuration into the buildout is just overhead.

Can somebody give me a use-case why version should have more priority
then explicit linked in develop eggs?

And if it comes to explicit over implicit. I explicit define
a develop egg for development and it implicit uses the KGS
defined as a default configuration. There is no explicit
version which I define in the develoment process. Versions are 
just there or not.

This means explicit develop egg links get overriden by implicit 
version definitions. I think that's the only thing which we get
confused and discuss this topic now. right?

Or are I'm wrong?

Hm, or do we have different point of views here and we argument in a
different context. Is there a different point of preferred behavoir
if we develop OR setup an application based on builldout?

My argumentation is only based on the development point of view.
I'm not sure if this will affect an application setup for production
use. I'm also not sure what Jim means with Ubuntu and system Python.

but anyway, 
I'm fine with version over develop. It's just another thing
you have to know for sucessfull development. I guess my brain has some
little space for remember such tweaks in buildout ;-)

Regards
Roger Ineichen

 regards
 Christophe
 
 
  
  Regards,
  David
  
  
  Jim Fulton wrote:
 
  On Feb 23, 2008, at 9:26 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
  I don't have enough experience with all the use cases of buildout 
  and the develop-eggs, but at a first glance, I find it 
 more logical 
  to give priority to 'develop':
  'develop' is supposed to point to a real path containing 
 a setup.py, 
  so when defining a develop-egg, you clearly indicate that you want
  *that* path, whathever version this develop-egg defines.
 
  That is the philosophy that buildout takes. That's why, 
 when picking 
  versions, buildout prefers develop eggs over newer 
 non-develop eggs.
  However, buildout will only use a develop egg if it 
 satisfies stated 
  requirements.  As it stands today, specifying a version in 
 a versions 
  section is like stating a == requirement in a setup script or in a 
  eggs option.
 
  Jim
 
  --
  Jim Fulton
  Zope Corporation
 
 
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Marius Gedminas
On Sat, Feb 23, 2008 at 05:22:29PM +0100, Christophe Combelles wrote:
 I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, because there 
 are two explicit configurations: one explicit 'version', and one explicit 
 'develop'.
 I think the question is about what to choose between two explicit 
 configurations that are potentially conflicting.

 There can be arguments for giving priority on one of them.
 Maybe the best thing here would be to just warn the user (in stdout) about 
 the conflict. Buildout should tell him that either the specified version 
 won't be used, or the develop-egg won't be used.

Why stdout and not stderr?  If you have two explicit requirement that
cannot be both satisfied at the same time, wouldn't it make more sense
show a clear error message and abort?

In case of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess.
--- Zen of Python

Marius Gedminas
-- 
A bus station is where a bus stops, a train station is where a train stops. On
my desk I have a work station...


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Jim Fulton


On Feb 23, 2008, at 11:22 AM, Christophe Combelles wrote:
I don't think this is a matter of implicit versus explicit, because  
there are two explicit configurations: one explicit 'version', and  
one explicit 'develop'.


The develop option just causes a develop egg to be created.  It  
doesn't say if they should be used for a particular part.


It is certainly a matter of policy that buildout prefers develop  
distributions when there isn't an explicit requirement.  Currently,  
versions are treated as explicit requirements.


Jim

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Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Stephan Richter
On Saturday 23 February 2008, Jim Fulton wrote:
 Despite my response to him, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm curious what  
 other people think,

For me this is more a question of whether I can override version definitions. 
If the following is possible, I like the current method:

[buildout]
develop = . ../z3c.name
extends=http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions-3.4.0c1.cfg
versions = versions

[versions]
z3c.name = 1.3.1dev

The additional version specification should be merged into the extends version 
section. The version 1.3.1dev is the version the develop egg specifies.

I think that allowing to override parts of the versions section is a common 
use case when working with the KGS. Whether the overridden package version 
references a develop egg or not is a special case.

Regards,
Stephan
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Jim Fulton

On Feb 23, 2008, at 3:06 PM, Stephan Richter wrote:


On Saturday 23 February 2008, Jim Fulton wrote:

Despite my response to him, I'm not entirely sure.  I'm curious what
other people think,


For me this is more a question of whether I can override version  
definitions.

If the following is possible, I like the current method:

[buildout]
develop = . ../z3c.name
extends=http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions-3.4.0c1.cfg
versions = versions

[versions]
z3c.name = 1.3.1dev

The additional version specification should be merged into the  
extends version
section. The version 1.3.1dev is the version the develop egg  
specifies.


Yes. That's how it works now.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation


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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Stephan Richter
On Saturday 23 February 2008, Jim Fulton wrote:
  The additional version specification should be merged into the  
  extends version
  section. The version 1.3.1dev is the version the develop egg  
  specifies.

 Yes. That's how it works now.

Cool, then I think the behavior is correct. I think it is merely a matter of 
communicating that things work this way.

Regards,
Stephan
-- 
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Web Software Design, Development and Training
Google me. Zope Stephan Richter
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Re: [Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-23 Thread Christian Theune



Stephan Richter schrieb:

On Saturday 23 February 2008, Jim Fulton wrote:
The additional version specification should be merged into the  
extends version
section. The version 1.3.1dev is the version the develop egg  
specifies.

Yes. That's how it works now.


Cool, then I think the behavior is correct. I think it is merely a matter of 
communicating that things work this way.


I agree.

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fax +49 345 122 9889 1 - zope and plone consulting and development
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[Zope-dev] buildout 'versions' and 'develop' conflict

2008-02-22 Thread Christophe Combelles

Hi,

It seems that the 'versions' information in a buildout has a priority over 
'develop'?


What I wanted is to use the exact versions of the KGS:
extends = http://download.zope.org/zope3.4/versions.cfg
versions = versions

Then for a particular egg (say, z3c.menu), use a develop-egg instead:
develop = . z3c.menu

However the develop-egg is never used, because of the version information.

Shouldn't the 'develop' directive have a priority?
Or is there another way to to what I want?

thanks,
Christophe
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