> On Jan 31, 2018, at 11:52 , Mike Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> “This is, IMHO, the kind of speculation in 103/8 blocks that the policy 
> (original 2 year limit) was intended to target.”
>  
> Not to my thinking. The thing that was targeted by policy was the tapping of 
> the free pool in order to then turn around and sell.  The problem foreseen 
> was a recurrence of the RIPE problem, where new LIRs are spun up just to 
> avail themselves of the pool reserved for new applicants.
>  
> In the case I mentioned, the buyer, who did not tap the pool but instead paid 
> money, is now prevented from resale.

True, but the person he bought the registration from, OTOH, was only able to 
sell due to the loophole, so I have little sympathy for this particular corner 
case.

> If the target of the policy is the protection of the remaining pool reserved 
> for new entrants, preventing *prior* recipients from selling is missing that 
> target, because the free pool is not affected.

This is the same logic that failed with Ivory.
 
> That is why I could support a waiting period moving forward, as that will 
> protect the pool as intended. I would concur with your 24 month period as 
> being more reasonable.

As I stated previously in reply to Skeeve. The statistics don’t bear out the 
problem I thought would exist, so I’m no longer objecting to this proposal. 
However, I don’t grant the premise of your argument above.

Owen

>  
> Regards,
> Mike
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 2:39 PM
> To: Mike Burns <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
> Cc: Skeeve Stevens <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>>; Bertrand Cherrier 
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>; 
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [sig-policy] prop-123-v001: Modify 103/8 IPv4 transfer policy
>  
> We can agree to disagree.
>  
> This is, IMHO, the kind of speculation in 103/8 blocks that the policy 
> (original 2 year limit) was intended to target.
>  
> The expansion of this to a 5 year limit, while excessive IMHO, seems to 
> likely be community reaction to just this sort of behavior, so I have no 
> problem with the result.
>  
> Owen
>  
>> On Jan 31, 2018, at 09:06 , Mike Burns <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>  
>> We brokered a sale of a 103 block when it was within policy to do so.
>>  
>> Now that buyer, who paid money for the block with the understanding that he 
>> could resell it, has had the situation changed to his detriment by the new 
>> restrictive policy.
>>  
>> I support the grandfathering-in of 103 blocks allocated prior to the recent 
>> 5 year policy, allowing them to be resold but preventing those who receive 
>> 103 blocks after the 5 year policy was implemented from reselling before 5 
>> years.  (Although  5 years is too long, IMO)
>>  
>> I support this policy.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> From: [email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]> 
>> [mailto:[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Skeeve Stevens
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2018 11:40 AM
>> To: Bertrand Cherrier <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Cc: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> SIG List 
>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: [sig-policy] prop-123-v001: Modify 103/8 IPv4 transfer policy
>>  
>> I very much support this policy. A policy should not be retrospectively 
>> applied otherwise anything any of us may do or plan to do can be considered 
>> guaranteed, and I would see a case for requesting APNIC to return funds for 
>> any services provided that have been negated by policy changes.
>>  
>> I also very much object to the 5 year period that snuck in at the last APNIC 
>> meeting. I was happy with 2 years, but 5 years is unreasonable.
>>  
>> I was going to make a submission to change this back to 2 years, but 
>> unfortunately, work got in the way and I did not get the submission in on 
>> time. Next meeting maybe.
>> 
>> 
>> ...Skeeve
>>  
>> Skeeve Stevens - Founder & The Architect - eintellego Networks (Cambodia) 
>> Pte Ltd.
>> Email: [email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]> ; Web: eintellegonetworks.asia 
>> <http://eintellegonetworks.asia/>
>> Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve
>> Facebook: eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; 
>> Twitter: eintellego <https://twitter.com/eintellego>
>> LinkedIn: /in/skeeve <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360: Profile 
>> <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9> ; Keybase: https://keybase.io/skeeve 
>> <https://keybase.io/skeeve>
>>  
>> Elastic Fabrics - Elastic Engineers - Elastic ISPs - Elastic Enterprises
>>  
>> On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Bertrand Cherrier <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> Dear SIG members,
>>> 
>>> The proposal "prop-123-v001: Modify 103/8 IPv4 transfer policy" has
>>> been sent to the Policy SIG for review.
>>> 
>>> It will be presented at the Open Policy Meeting at APNIC 45 in
>>> Kathmandu, Nepal on Tuesday, 27 February 2018.
>>> 
>>> We invite you to review and comment on the proposal on the mailing list
>>> before the meeting.
>>> 
>>> The comment period on the mailing list before an APNIC meeting is an
>>> important part of the policy development process. We encourage you to
>>> express your views on the proposal:
>>> 
>>>  - Do you support or oppose this proposal?
>>>  - Does this proposal solve a problem you are experiencing? If so,
>>>    tell the community about your situation.
>>>  - Do you see any disadvantages in this proposal?
>>>  - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
>>>  - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more
>>>    effective?
>>> 
>>> Information about this proposal is available at:
>>> 
>>>    http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-123 
>>> <http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-123>
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Sumon, Bertrand, Ching-Heng
>>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
>>> 
>>> https://www.apnic.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/prop-123-v001.txt 
>>> <https://www.apnic.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/prop-123-v001.txt> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> prop-123-v001: Modify 103/8 IPv4 transfer policy
>>>  
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> Proposer:        Alex Yang
>>>                  [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 1. Problem statement
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> Policy Proposal prop-116-v006: Prohibit to transfer IPv4 addresses in 
>>> the final /8 block reached consensus at the APNIC 44 AMM on 14 Sep 
>>> 2017. Since that APNIC has stopped all the IPv4 transfers from 103/8 
>>> block if the delegation date is less than 5 years.
>>>  
>>> However, some of the 103/8 ranges were delegated before 14 Sep 2017. 
>>> Those resources should not be subjected to 5 years restriction. The 
>>> community was not aware of the restriction when they received those 
>>> resources, some of the resources have been transferred or planning to 
>>> transfer. If APNIC is not allow those transfers to be registered, 
>>> there will be underground transfers. This will cause incorrect APNIC 
>>> Whois data.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 2. Objective of policy change
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> To keep the APNIC Whois data correct.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 3. Situation in other regions
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> No such situation in other regions.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 4. Proposed policy solution
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> “Prohibit transfer IPv4 addresses under final /8 address block (103/8)
>>> which have not passed five years after its allocation/assignment” 
>>> should only apply to those ranges were delegated from APNIC since 14 
>>> Sep 2017.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> Advantages:
>>>  
>>> - Allow APNIC to register those 103/8 transfers to keep the APNIC 
>>>   Whois data correct.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Disadvantages:
>>>  
>>> None.
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 6. Impact on resource holders
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>  
>>> Resource holders are allowed to transfer 103/8 ranges if the resources 
>>> were delegated before 14 Sep 2017.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> 7. References
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> *              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy         
>>>   *
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>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy 
>>> <https://mailman.apnic.net/mailman/listinfo/sig-policy>
>>  
>> *              sig-policy:  APNIC SIG on resource management policy          
>>  *
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