Hi Jordi:

That must be a long time ago.

RIPE's current policy is you ask you get, no need to provide a reason.

Of course that means you can get IP for leasing, you can even get IP for
resale.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 16:32, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
> There is no inaccuracy on the RIPE point. Long time ago I made the
> question to RIPE staff and a justification on an original request for IP
> resources for leasing will not have been accepted as a valid one. Not
> talking about transfers here, just original justification of the need.
>
> Working in a new version following all the inputs. Tks!
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
> El 22 ago 2023, a las 16:19, Mike Burns <[email protected]> escribió:
>
> Hello,
>
> The revised Section 3 contains the same inaccuracy that I have pointed out
> before in other fora to the authors.
> Notably the situation described in RIPE below is false.
> RIPE only applies needs-tests to inbound inter-regional  transfers, and in
> this case leasing them out is a justified use.
> If you don’t accept my assertion, I invite you to contact RIPE directly.
>
> Can the authors provide a succinct problem statement that states the
> problem we are trying to solve?
> The one I can see is the claim that there is an existing “security
> problem” on the Internet related directly to blocks being used outside the
> registrant’s “immediate physical control.”
> Maybe the proposal would be easier to understand if it was simplified to
> something like “Addresses may only be utilized by networks that the
> registrant has immediate physical control of.”?
> Because then it would be easier to block and filter content, making it
> safer for the community?
>
> Regards,
> Mike Burns
>
>
>
> *From:* Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected]>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2023 7:30 PM
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version: prop-148 Clarification - Leasing
> of Resources is not Acceptable
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Secretariat Impact Assessment: prop-148-v004
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> APNIC notes that this proposal suggests explicitly stating in the
> APNIC Internet Number Resources policy document that leasing of
> addresses is not permitted in the APNIC region.
>
> Questions/Comments:
> -------------------
> - Can the authors provide a clear definition of what is considered
> 'leasing'?
>
> - How do the authors propose APNIC verifies that IP addresses are
> being leased and how often do they suggest APNIC should be checking?
>
> - Does this proposal apply to all existing delegations or only those
> addresses delegated after the proposal is implemented (if it reaches
> consensus)?
>
> - How does this proposal apply to account holders who have previously
> received delegations and use the IP addresses under different entities
> (for example, subsidiaries using them in different locations)?
>
> Implementation:
> ---------------
> This proposal may require changes to APNIC systems. If this proposal
> reaches consensus, implementation may be completed within three months.
>
> Regards,
> Sunny
>
> On 5/08/2023 2:59 am, Shaila Sharmin wrote:
>
> Dear SIG members,
>
> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing
> of Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy SIG for review.
>
> Information about earlier versions is available from:
>
> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148
>
> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal:
>
>   - Do you support or oppose the proposal?
>   - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear?
>   - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more effective?
>
> Please find the text of the proposal below.
>
> Regards,
> Bertrand, Shaila, and Anupam
> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected])
>            Amrita Choudhury ([email protected])
>            Fernando Frediani ([email protected])
>
>
> 1. Problem statement
> --------------------
> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources
> according to need, in such way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be able
> to directly connect its customers based on justified need. Addresses are
> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business.
>
> When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for whatever
> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to the
> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of the
> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific purpose that
> no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to be
> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced to
> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources using
> the appropriate transfer policy.
>
> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the original
> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the link
> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses security
> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource holder who
> has received the license to use the addresses does not have immediate
> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to the
> entire community.
>
> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the Internet
> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a
> connectivity service, as it was documented with the original need
> justification.
>
> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, however
> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as acceptable,
> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service.
> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid for those
> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect customers
> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license for
> the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections 3.2.6.
> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8.
> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on this
> issue, but an explicit clarification is required.
>
> 2. Objective of policy change
> -----------------------------
> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the entire
> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for
> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the
> appropriate clarifying text.
>
>
> 3. Situation in other regions
> -----------------------------
> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either and
> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this proposal
> will be presented as well.
>
> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not
> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, the
> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as valid for
> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as justification
> of need.
>
> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN.
>
>
> 4. Proposed policy solution
> ---------------------------
> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources
>
> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or a NIR,
> the justification of the need implies the need to use on their own
> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided to
> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is unacceptable,
> nor does it justify the need, unless otherwise justified in the original
> request. Even for networks that are not connected to the Internet,
> leasing of IP addresses is not permitted, because such sites can request
> direct assignments from APNIC or the relevant NIR and, in the case of
> IPv4, use private addresses or arrange market transfers.
>
> APNIC should proactively investigate those cases and also initiate the
> investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email address or
> other means developed by APNIC.
>
> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has been
> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be considered a
> policy violation and revocation may apply against any account holders
> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in the
> initial request.
>
>
> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages
> -----------------------------
> Advantages:
> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy clear.
>
> Disadvantages:
> None.
>
>
> 6. Impact on resource holders
> -----------------------------
> None.
>
>
> 7. References
> -------------
> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/
> https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en
> --
> Regards,
> Shaila Sharmin
> +8801811447396
>
>
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-- 
--
Kind regards.
Lu
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