Hi Jordi: Who define those legal rights?
Who said it is not a property? On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:55 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < [email protected]> wrote: > Really ugly and unfortunate that you compare those things, and I guess > against code of conduct. > > I just can insist that you can’t sell something that is not a property. > You have the usage rights. You can own a house or have the right to use it > (rental), and the right to use it may allow you to transfer that right to > another person or not. So not the same reselling that transferring > addresses, is not just a matter of wording, but about the real meaning of > those words, from a legal perspective. > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > El 2 sept 2023, a las 11:43, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: > > Hi Jordi: > > Tell me the difference between reselling and transferring? > > Does it equal to the 500 USD someone paid to the girl he met last night? > Of course it’s not prostitution, just little goodwill. > > Nominally a transfer involve that 500USD I just mentioned. > > > > On Sat, 2 Sep 2023 at 17:39 jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> It is true that RIPE is too liberal, but not so to allow reselling >> addresses, because those aren’t a property. You can transfer them. That’s >> it. >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >> El 30 ago 2023, a las 10:40, Lu Heng <[email protected]> escribió: >> >> Hi Jordi: >> >> That must be a long time ago. >> >> RIPE's current policy is you ask you get, no need to provide a reason. >> >> Of course that means you can get IP for leasing, you can even get IP for >> resale. >> >> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 at 16:32, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Mike, >>> >>> There is no inaccuracy on the RIPE point. Long time ago I made the >>> question to RIPE staff and a justification on an original request for IP >>> resources for leasing will not have been accepted as a valid one. Not >>> talking about transfers here, just original justification of the need. >>> >>> Working in a new version following all the inputs. Tks! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jordi >>> >>> @jordipalet >>> >>> >>> El 22 ago 2023, a las 16:19, Mike Burns <[email protected]> escribió: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> The revised Section 3 contains the same inaccuracy that I have pointed >>> out before in other fora to the authors. >>> Notably the situation described in RIPE below is false. >>> RIPE only applies needs-tests to inbound inter-regional transfers, and >>> in this case leasing them out is a justified use. >>> If you don’t accept my assertion, I invite you to contact RIPE directly. >>> >>> Can the authors provide a succinct problem statement that states the >>> problem we are trying to solve? >>> The one I can see is the claim that there is an existing “security >>> problem” on the Internet related directly to blocks being used outside the >>> registrant’s “immediate physical control.” >>> Maybe the proposal would be easier to understand if it was simplified to >>> something like “Addresses may only be utilized by networks that the >>> registrant has immediate physical control of.”? >>> Because then it would be easier to block and filter content, making it >>> safer for the community? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mike Burns >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Srinivas (Sunny) Chendi <[email protected]> >>> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2023 7:30 PM >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* [sig-policy] Re: New version: prop-148 Clarification - >>> Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Secretariat Impact Assessment: prop-148-v004 >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> APNIC notes that this proposal suggests explicitly stating in the >>> APNIC Internet Number Resources policy document that leasing of >>> addresses is not permitted in the APNIC region. >>> >>> Questions/Comments: >>> ------------------- >>> - Can the authors provide a clear definition of what is considered >>> 'leasing'? >>> >>> - How do the authors propose APNIC verifies that IP addresses are >>> being leased and how often do they suggest APNIC should be checking? >>> >>> - Does this proposal apply to all existing delegations or only those >>> addresses delegated after the proposal is implemented (if it reaches >>> consensus)? >>> >>> - How does this proposal apply to account holders who have previously >>> received delegations and use the IP addresses under different entities >>> (for example, subsidiaries using them in different locations)? >>> >>> Implementation: >>> --------------- >>> This proposal may require changes to APNIC systems. If this proposal >>> reaches consensus, implementation may be completed within three months. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Sunny >>> >>> On 5/08/2023 2:59 am, Shaila Sharmin wrote: >>> >>> Dear SIG members, >>> >>> A new version of the proposal "prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing >>> of Resources is not Acceptable" has been sent to the Policy SIG for review. >>> >>> Information about earlier versions is available from: >>> >>> http://www.apnic.net/policy/proposals/prop-148 >>> >>> You are encouraged to express your views on the proposal: >>> >>> - Do you support or oppose the proposal? >>> - Is there anything in the proposal that is not clear? >>> - What changes could be made to this proposal to make it more >>> effective? >>> >>> Please find the text of the proposal below. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Bertrand, Shaila, and Anupam >>> APNIC Policy SIG Chairs >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> prop-148-v004: Clarification - Leasing of Resources is not Acceptable >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Proposer: Jordi Palet Martinez ([email protected]) >>> Amrita Choudhury ([email protected]) >>> Fernando Frediani ([email protected]) >>> >>> >>> 1. Problem statement >>> -------------------- >>> RIRs have been conceived to manage, allocate and assign resources >>> according to need, in such way that a LIR/ISP has addresses to be able >>> to directly connect its customers based on justified need. Addresses are >>> not, therefore, a property with which to trade or do business. >>> >>> When the justification of the need disappears or changes, for whatever >>> reasons, the expected thing would be to return said addresses to the >>> RIR, otherwise according to Section 4.1. (“The original basis of the >>> delegation remains valid”) and 4.1.2. (“Made for a specific purpose that >>> no longer exists, or based on information that is later found to be >>> false or incomplete”) of the policy manual, APNIC is not enforced to >>> renew the license. An alternative is to transfer these resources using >>> the appropriate transfer policy. >>> >>> If the leasing of addresses is authorized, contrary to the original >>> spirit of the policies and the very existence of the RIRs, the link >>> between connectivity and addresses disappears, which also poses security >>> problems, since, in the absence of connectivity, the resource holder who >>> has received the license to use the addresses does not have immediate >>> physical control to manage/filter them, which can cause damage to the >>> entire community. >>> >>> Therefore, it should be made explicit in the Policies that the Internet >>> Resources should not be leased “per se”, but only as part of a >>> connectivity service, as it was documented with the original need >>> justification. >>> >>> The existing policies of APNIC are not explicit about that, however >>> current policies do not regard the leasing of addresses as acceptable, >>> if they are not an integral part of a connectivity service. >>> Specifically, the justification of the need would not be valid for those >>> blocks of addresses whose purpose is not to directly connect customers >>> of an LIR/ISP, and consequently the renewal of the annual license for >>> the use of the addresses would not be valid either. Sections 3.2.6. >>> (Address ownership), 3.2.7. (Address stockpiling) and 3.2.8. >>> (Reservations not supported) of the policy manual, are keys on this >>> issue, but an explicit clarification is required. >>> >>> 2. Objective of policy change >>> ----------------------------- >>> Despite the fact that the intention in this regard underlies the entire >>> Policy Manual text and is thus applied to justify the need for >>> resources, this proposal makes this aspect explicit by adding the >>> appropriate clarifying text. >>> >>> >>> 3. Situation in other regions >>> ----------------------------- >>> In other RIRs, the leasing of addresses is not authorized either and >>> since it is not explicit in their policy manuals either, this proposal >>> will be presented as well. >>> >>> Nothing is currently mentioned in RIPE about this and it is not >>> acceptable as a justification of the need. In AFRINIC and LACNIC, the >>> staff has confirmed that address leasing is not considered as valid for >>> the justification. In ARIN it is not considered valid as justification >>> of need. >>> >>> A similar proposal is under discussion in LACNIC and ARIN. >>> >>> >>> 4. Proposed policy solution >>> --------------------------- >>> 5.8. Leasing of Internet Number Resources >>> >>> In the case of Internet number resources delegated by APNIC or a NIR, >>> the justification of the need implies the need to use on their own >>> infrastructure and/or network connectivity services provided to >>> customers. As a result, any form of IP address leasing is unacceptable, >>> nor does it justify the need, unless otherwise justified in the original >>> request. Even for networks that are not connected to the Internet, >>> leasing of IP addresses is not permitted, because such sites can request >>> direct assignments from APNIC or the relevant NIR and, in the case of >>> IPv4, use private addresses or arrange market transfers. >>> >>> APNIC should proactively investigate those cases and also initiate the >>> investigation in case of reports by means of a form, email address or >>> other means developed by APNIC. >>> >>> If any form of leasing, regardless of when the delegation has been >>> issued, is confirmed by an APNIC investigation, it will be considered a >>> policy violation and revocation may apply against any account holders >>> who are leasing or using them for any purposes not specified in the >>> initial request. >>> >>> >>> 5. Advantages / Disadvantages >>> ----------------------------- >>> Advantages: >>> Fulfilling the objective above indicated and making the policy clear. >>> >>> Disadvantages: >>> None. >>> >>> >>> 6. Impact on resource holders >>> ----------------------------- >>> None. >>> >>> >>> 7. References >>> ------------- >>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/proposals/2022/ARIN_prop_308_v2/ >>> https://politicas.lacnic.net/politicas/detail/id/LAC-2022-2/language/en >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Shaila Sharmin >>> +8801811447396 >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************** >>> IPv4 is over >>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>> http://www.theipv6company.com >>> The IPv6 Company >>> >>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >>> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >>> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >>> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >>> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >>> communication and delete it. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >>> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Kind regards. >> Lu >> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of >> the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized >> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the >> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or >> use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including >> attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal >> offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this >> communication and delete it. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > _______________________________________________ > SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
_______________________________________________ SIG-policy - https://mailman.apnic.net/[email protected]/ To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
