Hi Fernando, My responses below, in-line.
Regards, Jordi @jordipalet > El 27 ago 2024, a las 21:16, Fernando Frediani <[email protected]> > escribió: > > Hi Jordi > > On 27/08/2024 14:00, jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy wrote: >> Hi Noah, >> >> As I said many times, I was personally against transfers of any type, but >> once they reach consensus in some regions, the other regions are in >> disadvantage, so we need to work on that for the community good. > IP Leasing or "Temporary Transfer" which is just another name hasn't reached > consensus on any other RIR so far. What we have are 2 RIRs where there are > not rules written in that sense and that close their eyes in order to not > have to face legal battling maybe. > Still if there was a region where this would exist it is not because a region > committed a mistake that others have to follow. What you call a “mistake” is a personal view, not a valid objection. Otherwise, anyone could object to *any* proposal because it will be “a mistake”. If a proposal reach consensus in another region, you could still claim “is a mistake” and others can say “it is not a mistake” …, right? > The good for the community is to protect the resources that are intended to > be assigned directly by the RIR for the organizations that build Internet > Infrastructure and connect people, not to organizations that explore IP > addressing as real state. > The good for the community is not to exist any kind of IP Leasing, one of the > reasons being is that inflates the IPv4 cost in general (including for > transfers) and end up concentrate its usage on those who can pay more, not > necessarily on those who have a need and justification. > Again, a personal view. As I said, I personally believe that the right thing, the honorable thing, is to return resources if not used, not lease them, not transfer them. Resources aren’t for doing money. They are for being used by those that need them. But this is my personal view, and it is impossible to enforce that. In that case the *best* exit for the community on that dilema is ensure that they are being used, either by means of permanent or temporary transfers. >> >> Yes, the RIRs have mechanisms to deal with lack of compliance, but is not >> easy, not always happens and in the end, is better for the community to find >> regulated solutions when policies have failed in some specific points. > It is not easy, but it is the right thing to do and must be tried at any > reasonable means. There are regulations already and so far I haven't seen > RIRs (not just APNIC) complaining they are unable to apply sanctions to > organizations that violates current policies and urging community to change > the rules to make it more balanced. When we tried that by a previous proposal, it didn’t worked, the community didn’t accepted that way. So this proposal is here to try to find an alternative that allows those resources that aren’t being used by the actual holders and they don’t return them, to be used by others. >> >> <clip> >> >> I’m against stockpiling, clearly, it is against policies, and the most >> honest thing to do will be to return the unused resources to the relevant >> RIRs, but this is not going to happen, so we must set rules to allow those >> resources to be used by those that need them. Some of they are able to pay >> for permanent transfers, some others not, some others, may only need those >> resources for a specific period of time. > There are rules already which allow transfers so unused resources can be > transferred to those who justify them. If one is not able to pay for a bigger > transfer then make an smaller, make a better usage of what they already have, > reorganize their network, but never forget we are in IPv4 exhaustion times > for quiet a while and it is not by allowing people to leasing IP addressing > that will resolve IPv4 exhaustion. > I understand the need of the newcomes and the very small ones, but the way > some people have been talking about they just want to open unlimited doors > to, in practice allow IP leasing limitless as if it was a good owned by the > companies who wish to do it. > Again, with you in my “personal view”, but we need to be practical on the sense of what is best for the community. > Fernando > >> >> Regards, >> Jordi >> >> @jordipalet >> >> >>> El 14 ago 2024, a las 17:24, Noah <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> >>> escribió: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 10:47 AM jordi.palet--- via SIG-policy >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Hi Noah, >>>> >>>> I will agree that the most honest thing to do is to return the space that >>>> you don’t need to the corresponding RIR, and this is the reason I was >>>> since day 1, personally opposed to any kind of transfers. However, my view >>>> is not important, but the community one and that means that having >>>> “regulated” ways to do things instead of operations “under the table” is >>>> the right way to go. >>> >>> Hi Jordi >>> >>> Let us not use the excuse of doing things "under the table" to push >>> proposals that are not warranted. The RIR's have mechanisms in place to >>> deal with any issues of violation of policy. If you know of any under the >>> table situation, it's best you inform the RIR. >>> >>>> >>>> Now, you’re wrong regarding the support of “leasing” in ARIN and RIPE NCC, >>>> as indicated in the proposal: >>>> 3. Situation in other regions >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> As far as we know, only in RIPE NCC temporary transfers are allowed. >>> It was not necessary to have such a requirement in place since its a known >>> practise that LIR have traditionally assigned and/or sub-allocated address >>> space to end users as part of connectivity internet services or hosted >>> services with a contract of such services. >>> >>>> At the same time, RIPE NCC does not contemplate leasing, but it does not >>>> explicitly prohibit it either. >>> The premise that when something is not explicitly prohibited therefore its >>> allow is flawed. This is what you are trying to imply. >>> >>> Please remember that there are mechanisms in place to deal with violations >>> of existing allocation policies. If an LIR was allocated address space >>> based-on need to use them to provide services to the public and they are >>> instead leasing it or renting it, the RIR ought to deal with such >>> violation. >>> >>> AFRINIC has indicated this even in recent times through a post here >>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html >>> >>> >>>> In AFRINIC and LACNIC, neither leasing nor temporary transfers are >>>> contemplated. However, an equivalent proposal has been submitted in LACNIC. >>>> Temporary transfers are not contemplated in ARIN, and leasing is not a >>>> valid justification of the need. When leasing addresses, no more addresses >>>> can be requested. Additionally, certain blocks cannot be leased. >>> I will encourage you to drop those proposals. Let us not legitimize leasing >>> of address space through the so called subtle "temporary transfers" because >>> RIPE somehow allowed such a practice. >>> >>> >>>> Also, in LACNIC there are 2 proposals being discussed in the same >>>> direction. >>> >>> It seems to me that folks went out of their way to stockpile IPv4 addresses >>> so as to create an artificial scarcity and depletion of IPv4 so that they >>> can monetize the addresses in the future through subtle policies. >>> >>> There was time, a decade ago, when everyone was singing, lets us go IPv6, >>> lets us all adopt IPv6, there will be no more IPv4 address by 2020, little >>> did the community know what there was lots of IPv4 address space stockpiled >>> to create a global artificial scarcity and an apparent depletion so as to >>> create a market for IPv$ as a commodities. >>> >>> The Internet community was played. >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Jordi >>> >>> Cheers, >>> ./noah >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/> >> The IPv6 Company >> >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or >> confidential. 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