Thanks for that Mike, I may know my stuff with mobile earthmoving equipment and semi trailers and whatever other work I have been involved in, but electricity...DUH!! I appreciate the patience and tolerance everyone has shown here and will continue with my 'tutorials' while trying to keep my questions to a minimum. If I keep reading and re-reading the info you all have provided the light bulb will eventually flicker into life. It's simply that I've never had a need to know in the past so it's obviously of benefit if I know what is happening so I may be able to see some improvements I could possibly make with my own setups.

Just as a point of interest, most information I have researched suggests that the solution should be stirred 'as slow as possible', (without quoting rpm?), while brewing, but going by observations with my equipment and results, I'm not so sure if slow is best. Example: I made a magnetic stirrer using a 12v dc fan with a magnet attached to the fan and use a variable voltage wall plug ac/dc adaptor to alter rpm. The 3v setting is not enough to...how am I going to say this without having someone climb all over my back, <g>...get the fan spinning, but 4.5 gets it going ok, and relatively slow. When I up the voltage it obviously spins slightly faster but it appears to give a better result. Still experimenting with that though, but this is how it seems to me at the moment. By better result I mean...clear, nothing, oops...'silver' doesn't 'fall out' of solution, pale TE, good ppm and so forth which to me are all really good signs, (ignoring arguments about meters, colour, ion/particle size and content etc etc).

I would like to look into, or find out how I can determine what rpm my stirrer is running at with each voltage setting. This again, is another reason why it would be handy to know electronics as I probably could build something out of a timing light used to time car engines to determine my stirrers rpm. But then probably not as they run on high voltage from the coil via distributor...oh well, no matter. There's a few things I would like to do and/or try but can't because I need to know this damn electricity business first.

Thanks for those few words of encouragement though, and that goes for all concerned. I guess we can't be an expert on everything.

Neville.

----- Original Message ----- From: "M. G. Devour" <mdev...@eskimo.com>
To: <silver-list@eskimo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:48 PM
Subject: CS>Thinking about current flow: for Neville


Dear Neville,

You're asking great questions. Keep it up and you'll get it in time.

One has a circuit... does the electricity run
directional? ie; does it circulate starting at the positive passing the
3:00 and return through the negative, or does it pass around the 9:00
and return to the positive...or neither, and just 'flows' so to speak to
complete a circuit meaning there is no 'particular' directional flow.

P.S.  25 words or less would be good...!  :-)

How about 100 words each on several topics? <grin>

The answer depends on what the current is flowing in, so lets take a
few different cases.

In metals and other good conductors, the medium by which current flows
is usually moving electrons. They sort of pick themselves up and glide
along the atomic lattice of the metal from atom to atom, while the
nuclei of the metal atoms stay locked in place by various atomic
forces. So it's reasonable to state that electrons are flowing from the
negative terminal of your battery, through the wires and load, and back
to the positive terminal.

The actual linear velocity of the electrons within the wire is
proportional to the current:  Zero with the switch off, and limited by
ohm's law, ie. total circuit resistance and voltage, when on.

However, the *effect* of the voltage pushing your electrons propagates
at close to the speed of light around your circuit, as the pressure
caused by the applied voltage propagates through the cloud of electrons
in the metal. Think of a tube filled end-to-end with ping-pong balls.
Push one in one end, another falls out the other end instantly.

As it turns out the *convention* of current flow from plus to minus was
created before they figured out what was actually carrying the current,
and stuck, as tradition often does.

Of course, there are materials other than metals that can carry
current, including semiconductors like they make transistors, diodes,
and integrated circuits with, and, as in our case, water in an
electrolysis cell.

In semiconductors you may have electrons flowing, as in conductors, or
you may need to consider "holes" or the absence of an electron in the
crystal lattice of the material, flowing in the opposite direction.

Yes the current is still actually carried by moving electrons around,
but for reasons understood by the physicists, materials scientists, and
engineers who design these things, hole current may be important. Hole
current is generally not important to us, however. <grin>

Now, in water, you may actually have both electrons flowing *and* atoms
or molecules of the solvent (water) or solutes (silver or salt, or
whatever) flowing in different directions...

Electrons will still flow from your battery's negative terminal,
through the wire to the negative electrode, through the water to your
positive electrode, then back through the wire to the battery positive
terminal.

However, there may also be a gradual drift of atoms or molecules from
one electrode to the other in the water, provided that they lose or
gain electrons from being dissolved.

An example would be salt, sodium chloride, which breaks up into
positive sodium ions (Na+) and negative chlorine ions (Cl-) when you
dissolve it in a polar solvent like water. The sodium ions will be
drawn toward the negative electrode and the chlorine ions will be drawn
toward the positive electrode.

Something like sugar dissolves in water without gaining or losing an
electron, so it will have no charge and won't be involved in any
current flow.

The other obvious example for us would be silver: For every so many
electrons that hit the surface of the positive electrode, a
proportional number of silver atoms, minus an electron and thus
carrying a positive charge, get blown out of their nice cozy crystal
lattice and find themselves in the water, lazily drifting toward the
negative electrode.

Now, since the mass of any atom or molecule is many times the mass of
an electron, the linear velocity of the ions will be much less than any
electrons whizzing by. The exact magnitudes will be proportional to
their mass and lots of other factors on an atomic scale I don't know
hoot about. That's why I used words like "lazily drifting" and "gradual
drift" to describe their motion above. <grin>

That's also why stirring can be useful. Because the ions move
relatively slowly, they can get lost and end up staying in the water
rather than actually *reaching* the opposite electrode's surface, where
they lose their net charge, and often decide to stick around in their
nice new neighborhood. (Read: That fluffy build-up you get on the
negative electrode after a while if you're not stirring and/or
switching polarity every once in a while...)

Also, a silver ion might randomly pick up an electron somewhere in the
water and lose its charge, and thus stop moving toward the negative
electrode. It may also bump into another silver atom and start forming
a new comfy crystal lattice that can grow into a particle... Thus our
brew ends up with both ionic and particulate components.

So, to summarize, negatively charged particles like electrons or Cl-
ions will be drawn towards a positive electrode or terminal; positive
particles like Na+ or those hypothetical "holes" will move from a
positive electrode or terminal toward a negative one. Think: Opposite
charges attract and like charges repel.

Okay, all of the above is grossly simplified, but at the practical
level you and I are operating at here this description ought to help
you visualize what's going on, both in your generator circuit and in
the water of your brewing cell.

Be well!

Mike D.

[Mike Devour, Citizen, Patriot, Libertarian]
[mdev...@eskimo.com                        ]
[Speaking only for myself...               ]


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