Yap, forgot about tax expenses (they changed the legislation here a couple of years ago, and now they roam around 5% for small companies, so one tends to neglect that). Other places have it much higher, from what it seems.
Also forgot to add a very important expense (bad eastern european habit...) that has a very strong influence on rate: software maintance/upgrade costs, and also leasing costs for specialised tools. As a sidenote, i found out through the years, that sometimes it is better to incorporate than to work as a legal freelacer, as taxes are usually lower this way (5% vs 20% here - insane, right?). But this one may really only apply to this part of the world. Also as a freelancer suing someone is a lot harder (or at least threatening to sue - that one usually does the trick). Plus, getting an accountant and starting to tackle the financial side of a business is a must, as it opens up a world of hurt, knowledge and possibilities which every artist should go through to survive in this industry. Cheers, Octav On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 12:10 PM, olivier jeannel <olivier.jean...@noos.fr>wrote: > I think it's overall true every where. > On a side note, I'd add that in France when a company hire someone at 100 > e/day (salary) it cost 200e/day to the company due to taxes. And on the > 100e, the worker has to release back some money for his own taxes, of > course. > > On the over side, the freelance *seems* to cost more but you can join him > on weekend and on holydays ;) > > > > > Le 19/11/2012 10:25, Octavian Ureche a écrit : > > This is interesting, and i think it mostly revolves around making certain > things clear beforehand. > Notice that whenever you do the math based on what an employee's rate > would be, you always come up > with ridiculously low sums of money from a freelance perspective. > At first glance, 100 eur/day to me feels like borderline insulting for a > freelance rate. > But, if we do a little basic math, at that rate, an employee would get 2k > / month, and that includes healthcare and vacation. Which for eastern > european standards, is a very good salary. > Now as a freelancer, jobs are usually scarce (except if u're on a roll, > which i don't think happens that often). > So you need to plan your lifestyle accordingly. Backup plans and savings > are crucial. Also as a freelancer you have to add extra expenses to your > rates, like electricity, renderfarm costs (if u'r pulling heavy stuff that > you can't possibly render at home), subcontracting costs (we all need a > hand from time to time), rent for the apt you're living in, food, heating > or cooling expenses etc. That adds a considerable amount of money to that > rate. Something which does not apply to an employee which basically gets > all this for free at the working place (apart from food maybe). The studio > on the other hand adds these to it's hourly rate, which includes employee > expenses. > So while in theory, 100 eur/day sounds like a good fulltime salary, for a > freelancer, it would give a whole new meaning to life (survival training > might be necessary here). > > Keep in mind, everything i wrote, is based on eastern european > experience, but i presume it's the same > everywhere else. Numbers vary, but the theory stays the same. > > Peace, > O > > > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 10:32 AM, Szabolcs Matefy <szabol...@crytek.com>wrote: > >> Wow, very nice information. However, there were times, when I was told I >> am fairly expensive with my 100Euros (without VAT) rate per day...And I'm >> in Eastern Europe as well, and the statement was made by a company in the >> UK. >> >> Cheers >> >> >> Szabolcs >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: >> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of olivier jeannel >> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2012 4:41 PM >> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com >> Subject: Re: Semi OT : Charging the modelling >> >> Thank's Tim :) >> Pretty precize :D >> >> >> Le 17/11/2012 16:06, Tim Leydecker a écrit : >> > Given you´re mail account, you´re based in France. >> > >> > That´s EU territory. 19% VAT. >> > >> > I guess remote work, home office. Your own equipment, hardware and >> > software. >> > >> > Your own hours plus the above overhead. >> > >> > >> > You guess it would take you 4-5 days to complete the task. >> > >> > Adding 3 revision steps to that means another 3 days of handling >> > >> > your milestones, e.g. communication and revision loops with your client. >> > >> > That´s 7-8 days for finishing a 3 D character model. >> > >> > That´s very fast and seems to not include the concept/art-direction >> > bit too much. >> > >> > Especially when working with a fresh client who may only be able to >> > judge >> > >> > finished, e.g. fully built, textured, shaded and lit renderings. >> > >> > >> > I would suggest a small boutique shop price per day, which is at least >> > around 750 EUR/day. >> > >> > Because that´s what you do, besides modeling. >> > >> > Coming from a graphics design backround, list prices I can relate to >> > range in the 60 EUR/hr range but would not include additional fees for >> > usage of artworks. These fees for, let´s say a worldwide, unlimited >> > use of your character may easily be factor 10. >> > >> > For a reason. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > tim >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 17.11.2012 15:24, olivier jeannel wrote: >> >> Ah thank's, that helps. >> >> Well, the clients seems rather "new" in the 3d field. (nothing like >> >> Lionsgate, or big studio) So I'm not sure how they'll react to the >> >> range of price. >> >> Thank's a lot for your examples :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Le 17/11/2012 14:58, Octavian Ureche a écrit : >> >>> I remember doing a commercial for a studio here (eastern europe), >> >>> and we outsourced a horse model to a friend of mine who now happens >> >>> to work at lionhead. Point was, it took him 3 days, i recall, to do >> >>> it, and it cost 1000 euros. >> >>> And that was 4 or 5 years ago, and it wasn't considered that >> >>> expensive, and we're talking eastern europe here. Don't know if the >> >>> prices have changed that much since then in the modelling area, but >> >>> i thought it might be food for thought. >> >>> But the guy had an impressive portfolio even back then. >> >>> On the other hand, i had a friend who recently hired a ubisoft guy >> >>> with a rather poor portfolio to model a toycar, and he did it for >> >>> 400 in 4 days. >> >>> >> >>> Don't know if it matters whether it's cartoony or realistic, but i >> >>> think your portfolio will also help dictate the amount of money that >> >>> you can or can't charge. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 3:02 PM, olivier jeannel >> >>> <olivier.jean...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier.jean...@noos.fr>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Ok Thank you ! >> >>> So, 400$ * 4 or 5 days for 1 character is not over-priced >> >>> according to you ? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Le 16/11/2012 22:47, Stephen Davidson a écrit : >> >>>> I would then price it per day. 8 hour days. >> >>>> I charge approx. $400/day (314.2924 euros) >> >>>> >> >>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 3:51 PM, olivier jeannel >> >>>> <olivier.jean...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier.jean...@noos.fr>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I won't be able to be that precise, as I usualy don't count >> >>>> in hours. >> >>>> Thus I think for modelling a 1 character 4 or 5 days is a >> >>>> maximum. >> >>>> >> >>>> But, really I'd like someone to give me a price example. >> >>>> are you usually speaking in hundreds or thousands of euros >> >>>> ? I don't really know... >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Le 16/11/2012 16:36, Stephen Davidson a écrit : >> >>>>> I always estimate per hour. >> >>>>> I have found that I can be quite accurate with an hourly >> >>>>> estimate >> >>>>> by breaking down the modeling to it's most basic components. >> >>>>> For example, on a character model, how long to model each >> >>>>> eye. >> >>>>> How long to model basic body shape. How long to model hands, >> >>>>> face, expressions (if needed), clothes... you get the idea. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Then, add up all the tasks, and you will have a fairly >> >>>>> accurate estimate. >> >>>>> It takes practice, as my early quotes were not so >> >>>>> accurate. I have >> >>>>> been working in 3D since before Softimage version 1 so I >> >>>>> have gotten more >> >>>>> accurate over the years. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 4:59 AM, olivier jeannel >> >>>>> <olivier.jean...@noos.fr <mailto:olivier.jean...@noos.fr>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hi guys, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Now that I'm starting enjoying playing with Ice and >> >>>>> particle stuff, clients are asking for ...modelling job ^^ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I realize I never charged separatly for this task >> >>>>> alone. So my question is how much do you (freelance, homeworkers) >> >>>>> charge for 1 character modeling ? (How much do >> >>>>> you keep in your pocket in the end (forget the taxes)) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Typicaly, quadrupede / Biped, realistic proportions >> >>>>> anatomy but rather for toon / NPA / stylized rendering results. >> >>>>> In short, only polygonal modeling, (no Zbrush, no >> >>>>> hair) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> How much do you cost :) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Best Regards, >> >>>>> * Stephen P. Davidson** >> >>>>> **(954) 552-7956 <tel:%28954%29%20552-7956> >> >>>>> * sdavid...@3danimationmagic.com >> >>>>> <mailto:sdavid...@3danimationmagic.com> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> <http://www.3danimationmagic.com> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> >> >>>> Best Regards, >> >>>> * Stephen P. Davidson** >> >>>> **(954) 552-7956 >> >>>> * sdavid...@3danimationmagic.com >> >>>> <mailto:sdavid...@3danimationmagic.com> >> >>>> >> >>>> <http://www.3danimationmagic.com> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> visual | stuff >> >>> www.okto.ro <http://www.okto.ro> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > visual | stuff > www.okto.ro > > > -- visual | stuff www.okto.ro
