*""""Matt Lind speye...@hotmail.com <speye...@hotmail.com> via <http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=1311182&ctx=mail> listproc.autodesk.com <http://listproc.autodesk.com> * *3:46 PM (8 minutes ago)* *to softimage*
*I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What you have to understand is Autodesk doesn't want customers running concurrent sessions off a single license as in a Maya/Max and a Softimage session running in parallel. that would effectively allow double the users to work while paying only half the price. eg; if a customer has 50 licenses it would allow 50 maya + 50 softimage users to run concurrently, but pay for only 50 licenses. Some studios are ethical and wouldn't do something like that, but as someone mentioned just the other day, other studios in lesser affluent places might not be so ethical. Even if Softimage were included for free, it still consumes some amount of resources to ensure it still installs and runs as advertised. I agree in principle Autodesk should continue Softimage until one of their other products can replace the functionality. If anything, that's the ball that was dropped in this whole debacle. Of all companies on the planet, you'd think the one with all the accumulated experience of all the products that went through this process in the 1990's would know better and be more prepared than anyone else. But what's done is done.The problem with the theory of disgruntled users leaving and hurting Autodesk is that the Softimage user base isn't large enough to really be missed on Autodesk's bottom line. think about it. Only 8% of Autodesk's revenue comes from media and entertainment. Of that 8%, about 5% of it is from Softimage (0.4% total) - and that might be a generous number. For every $100 Autodesk earns in revenue, 40 cents comes from Softimage. Take out expenses and you're looking at much less. I don't remember the actual number, but I thought somebody recently reported Autodesk earned $392 million last year. So, let's run that through the calculator: $392,000,000 USD * 0.004 = $1,568,000 Softimage gross revenueI don't know what 10 developers in Singapore get paid, so I'll use conservative values based on USA rates: 10 * $100,000 = $1,000,000 subtract expenses from revenue: $1,568,000 - $1,000,000 = $568,000I don't know what marketing of Softimage costs, but I'm willing to bet $568,000 USD doesn't go very far for a product that needs a lot of attention to survive. Even if tripled, that's still lean. See the problem?One item of note that probably hasn't been brought up in discussion yet is that Softimage has been included in the Max and Maya suites the past few years, so some sales of Max and Maya may actually be Softimage sales in a certain light - I know of at least one studio where that is the case. In that scenario Softimage is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to accounting.I mourn the loss of Softimage as much as anybody having dedicated 21+ years of my life to it both as professional user and former owner of a Softimage certified training center. Sometimes life sucks.""""""* 21+ years of development experience you have and you don't even have the simplest faith in Autodesk that they can allow Soft and Maya to run on one single machine at the same time for crosswalk purposes but not allow them to run separately on two machines at the same time? ok, sure On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 3:33 PM, <sku...@gmail.com> wrote: > I agree completely, which is why I'm hoping that if we all band together > and ask for this small set of concessions, it will help us all make wiser > and easier transitions where-ever we may end up. > > > 1. you can rent or own either Max or Maya or some larger Suite and > with any of these, you would automatically get the now depreciated > Softimage 2015 package for legacy/pipeline purposes and uses. > 2. Full development of the now Depreciated Softimage stops, as planned > in 2016, however we still continue to get some additional years of > FBX/Crosswalk support as well as regular Mental Ray updates which will go > hand in hand with Crosswalk. > > > That's it, no more we can really hope to ask for considering how this was > all presented without much of a choice or say, but that little bit right > there, might be a lot more than it sounds like in terms of what it can do > for all current Softimage users, as they transition to Maya, Max or > elsewhere completely -and Autodesk will make some bucks in the process and > hopefully keep more users in their AD family than they likely will > otherwise. > > I hope that's all stated clear enough now. I know everyone, myself > included will want way more (personally I'd axe Max and Maya and just keep > Softimage but that's unrealistic), but given the way this all went down, we > are lucky if we get the above concessions, and if future Maya development > goes smoothly (aka. the new Maya Ice is good, they replace the dated > Hypershade with a system akin to the Softimage Render Tree, they add some > love to weight painting and rigging and animation tools, and they make > realistic steps to making Maya a fully usable and > coherent/streamlined package out of the box, interface wise with rich > keyboard and mouse interactions like Softimage has) well then by all means, > you can call me a happy Maya user in time, at my own pace. But you are > 100% correct that this is all subjective, it's all PR, it's not here and > right now and it's not the near foreseeable future until proven otherwise, > that's why I'm asking for the small 2 point concession above to make things > better for all of us and I hope you will all join me in asking these small > things from Autodesk as a professional courtesy for the hours/years, the > schooling and money we all put in to learning these skills and loving this > software. > > I don't think it's too much to ask, but I think we all have to ask. > > Sent from Windows Mail > > *From:* Mirko Jankovic <mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, March 15, 2014 3:26 PM > *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com > > All that "we are fully developing Maya so it will be great just you see"is > pure PR crap. > From couple sides is heard that bifrost which is one big argument on their > side is still too young to be usable. It is not even full grown fluid > simulation and to replace ICE it will take years.. even after, by AD's > plan, SI is long gone they will still be not near the level of ICE. Not to > mention all other aspects of Maya workflow which are SOOOO wrong that won/t > get to table at all for years to come. > > If they are so confident in Maya development they should let people see it > for them self and move by own choice. > But having whole road map so closed and under all NDAs is selling a cat in > the bag. You have no idea where is Maya going at all what is planned and > WHEN it will be available. > That is big pile of crap if you have to plan transition. > > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 8:56 AM, skuby <sku...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The above has a severe typo: Should read: With that, I don't think >> Autodesk will want to encourage new users to Softimage, so not selling new >> licenses directly makes sense for them, when they want to be >> selling/promoting Maya and presumably Max licenses. >> >> sorry, my error >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:52 PM, skuby <sku...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> *""""Martin furik...@gmail.com <furik...@gmail.com>* >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *With SI retired you can't buy licenses for SI anymore, it doesn't come >>> with Max or Maya, you can only use the licenses you have right now. You >>> should add "keep selling SI licenses" to your idea. MartinSent from my >>> iPhone""""""""""""""* >>> >>> Thing is, Softimage IS now depreciated, like it or not, no petition will >>> likely change that, that should be clear, -it's not going to move forward >>> like it used to and it will eventually fully die. With that, I don't think >>> Autodesk will want to encourage new users to Softimage, so not selling new >>> licenses directly makes sense for them to continue selling Softimage >>> directly, when they want to be selling/promoting Maya and presumably Max >>> licenses, -(yes it makes sense to us but not for them and we aren't going >>> to win that one). But, to keep it updated with FBX/Crosswalk and Mental >>> Ray is a great transition boon for those interested in migrating to either >>> Maya or Max. >>> >>> This will allow people in the middle of a transition to easily return to >>> familiar territory and get work done fast and clean and go back and forth >>> with ease, at their own pace as they re-learn all of their skills as well >>> as totally new features in their new package of choice. >>> >>> Two years, now until 2016, may very well not be enough time for some >>> studios/freelancers if they are buried in much needed work and it may not >>> be so easy to get all of the functionality out of the interfaces they are >>> accustomed to integrated into Max/Maya in such a short time at a level that >>> would be acceptable to all users. This keeps Soft development in a >>> depreciated state, but gives a little bit more growing room than the 2016 >>> deadline which is rightfully ambitious. And none of this encourages new >>> Softimage users, which is I suspect a quality they are wisely after given >>> their total gameplan. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 1:17 PM, skuby <sku...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Ok you are very right on the SDK/Plug-in front, I really didn't think >>>> about it like that. However, I think that dominated your response and your >>>> accidentally throwing out the baby with the bathwater in effect. (without >>>> question, no matter what, Softimage is depreciated but I'm trying to get >>>> the best effect out of a transition here) >>>> >>>> Soft, as is, without plug-ins or new features, is STILL usable for >>>> games, movies, commercials and more. Removing it as a stand-alone product, >>>> and packing it SOLEY as a tie in bonus with Maya, Max or any Suite, ONLY >>>> further promotes the packages AD wants to keep alive while appeasing the >>>> small studios (Japan/Vancouver/etc.) and freelance users of Softimage quite >>>> a bit better than just a 2016 cutoff. By keeping alive Crosswalk/FBX >>>> functionality for some time longer, -modeling, animation, UV, rigging, etc. >>>> can all still be done as is in Soft and if needed, easily sent over to >>>> Maya, as that features work right now between those two packages quite well >>>> (a little trickier with max as you don't get all the automated 2-way >>>> crosswalk features last I checked but you still have FBX handy and a TD can >>>> easily work with that). Keeping up to date Mental Ray, allows existing >>>> pipe-lines that go in the other direction, or use Softimage entirely, able >>>> to keep up and extend the transition period beyond 2016. Now, remember, >>>> all the while anyone primarily using Softimage with these Crosswalk/Mental >>>> Ray add-ons, are also going to have full up to date copies of at least one >>>> of the 2 non-depreciated softwares that AD wants to continue and actively >>>> promote at this time, which is only going to increase AD's revenue by >>>> ensuring many Japanese/Vancouver studios and others stay in the Autodesk >>>> family, and that alone will likely provide more than enough revenue that >>>> would potentially be lost (even if only in small amounts) to the obvious >>>> hoard of disgruntled orphans. >>>> >>>> I don't want to make this too long, but I had hoped by now, AD would >>>> have already merged the 3 major userbases (I expect with a Maya base above >>>> all else because big studios have a lot invested in existing pipelines with >>>> it and that just makes financial sense) . I think the above will really >>>> help with that transition, and they can promote in the future a refined >>>> Maya with a well needed updated hypershade (Softimage's render tree kills >>>> the current, dated, hypershade without question usability wise) and with a >>>> much needed update to the interaction model/keyboard shortcut/user >>>> interface that Softimage has over every other package out there, out of the >>>> box as a default. When you tack on the upcoming ICE replacement, and the >>>> best is done not to alienate hurt Softimage users, I think many if not most >>>> will naturally migrate to a well refined Maya without much cajoling with >>>> the above mentioned treats and perhaps some love given to the >>>> animation/keying/rigging/weighting systems. >>>> >>>> Anyways, that's my peace, I put it out there with the best of >>>> intentions. Mudbox is one of my favorites, I started with Max, moved onto >>>> Maya and ended up with Softimage. And in the current forms I have to wait >>>> for the future to move on from Softimage, because nothing, inside or >>>> outside of the AD family is going to replace it today, and I want that >>>> extended for as long as possible as Maya is refined into the obvious >>>> front-runner than merges the 3 bases. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Matt Lind >>>> <ml...@carbinestudios.com>wrote: >>>> >>>>> Short version: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1) Softimage supports more than just film/video. There are people >>>>> working in many industries which won't be served by mental ray and FBX >>>>> updates. My studio is a prime example (games). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2) The SDK is not open enough for plugin developers to do what you >>>>> suggest. Many of the 3rd party efforts to date usually required some >>>>> amount of help from the Softimage developers to make possible. Softimage >>>>> tended to implement new features, then expand the SDK to support those new >>>>> features. For 3rd party development, you need the SDK expanded ahead >>>>> of the features. In other words, while the SDK is mature, it's also not >>>>> expanded too far outside of what you can already do out of the box. New >>>>> plugin efforts would largely amount to using existing levers and switches >>>>> instead of making new levers and switches like you and everybody else >>>>> would >>>>> like. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There's still plenty of tools that can be written, but probably not >>>>> anything earth shattering as the SDK is single threaded and some of the >>>>> components it leans on are getting long in the tooth too as Luc-Eric has >>>>> recently mentioned. Basically, Softimage is that car that still performs >>>>> really great, but has high mileage and about to enter that period where >>>>> major parts will need repairing/replacing making it a very expensive >>>>> upkeep. Since the driver hasn't seen that breakage firsthand yet, he's >>>>> under the impression there isn't a problem and the car can drive on >>>>> indefinitely into the sunset. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Autodesk was at our site just as the press release was officially >>>>> hitting the wire. While no specifics were mentioned by Autodesk or our >>>>> reseller in our offices, my personal poking, prodding and reading between >>>>> the lines lead me to believe a lot of work (refactoring) has gone into >>>>> Maya >>>>> the past few years to accommodate some of this burden in migration, but >>>>> some (much) work still has to come. I think we'll see parts of that work >>>>> in Maya 2015 and probably explains why the Softimage Montreal team has >>>>> been >>>>> busy for the past 2 years on Maya instead of Softimage. I have no idea if >>>>> there's any truth to this, but it's what I've come to believe based on the >>>>> sparse bits and pieces I could put together, and witnessing how such >>>>> migrations were handled in the past. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'll share the rest of my thoughts from 21+ years of Softimage >>>>> experience in another thread at another time. Right now I'm neck deep in >>>>> getting the project out the door Ben Houston so kindly posted the other >>>>> day. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto: >>>>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *skuby >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 14, 2014 8:38 PM >>>>> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com >>>>> *Subject:* Idea- Just keep Mental Ray and FBX support - Softimage >>>>> free w/Maya or Max or any Suite. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Softimage is ready out of the box now with no new features added. Why >>>>> not, leave it as is, but continue to support new Mental Ray and FBX >>>>> updates >>>>> so that it still continues to fit nicely into any pipeline and leave >>>>> continued development past 2016 at those simple two things. Leave the >>>>> rest >>>>> up to plug-in developers and forever-more include Softimage as a free >>>>> throw-in with any Maya or Max or Suite purchase or rental, so there will >>>>> be >>>>> many ways to own it or rent it while exclusively promoting your other >>>>> packages. The other great thing, since it can only now come with Max/Maya >>>>> or a Suite, is that Soft users are never a financial burden to their >>>>> employers since it will always be a free seat with any existing Max/Maya >>>>> licence. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This could be a very easy, welcomed add-on to the existing Softimage >>>>> retirement announcement. Please please, consider this as an option >>>>> Autodesk and please, everyone, support and promote this idea to Autodesk, >>>>> I >>>>> think it's our best bet and we might actually be able to get this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -regards >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > >
