Perhaps this is another situation where sprinklers wont protect the
arrangement, no matter what we do. Is there any fire history with
ceiling clouds yet?
At 07:23 PM 8/15/2007, you wrote:
That's why I call them "feel good sprinklers". We usually put them in
because it isn't worth the fight. As this thread is proving.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thom
McMahon
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room
Do you really expect "Every" sprinkler head you install to operate in a
fire? BS. We hope enough operate to control the fire, we hope that no
more than the "Minimum" design are activate in a fire. We pray that no
one ever dies in a building that we did. We believe that we have done
our best to ensure the health an safety of the occupants, while
providing a "Measure" of protection for the structure. You could model
these things all day and never get to what happens in any particular
fire scenario. Is a door to the outside open? Windows open or closed?
HVAC on or off? A/C or Heat? Did Johnny bring a five gallon can of gas
to class, cause the teacher made him do scales.
The fact that some or all heads in the clouds fail to activate, is a far
more palatable ending , than they weren't installed, the water from the
heads above couldn't control the fire and the school burned to the
ground as the fire sprinkler system was overwhelmed, as the 900Sf design
reduction for QR was used and when the entire room was ablaze, it had
already exceeded the design.
I'd much rather end up in court defending a system that controlled a
fire, than one that didn't.
Thom McMahon
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488-2136
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fletcher, Ron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room
George, I'm usually with you on your answers but not this time.
Reality - Submit the COR, get the extra, install the heads in the
clouds. Fire in band room, sprinklers installed in clouds fail to
activate for lack of heat collection. Sprinklers at roof deck control
fire until arrival of FD. School sues FP contractor for selling extra
work that was not required by code and did not work as advertised.
That's why I call them "feel good sprinklers". They look good but don't
work.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic Sprinkler
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George
Church
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room
Wouldn't hurt to point out the dilemma of "it meets the code but the
effectiveness is cut substantially; my contractual obligation is met by
meeting the code; if you would like us to provide protection in excess
of the code and drop heads below the panels, we'll develop a COR for
your consideration.
Their response, or lack of it, may spare some legal defense costs in the
future; perhaps ensure the future of Rapid Fire as a "going concern".
One thing is for sure- it would be prudent to have acknowledgement that
a) you met code with just uprights
b) you brought the code vrs reality to the attention
Believe me when I say you do NOT want to be debating the acceptability
of it, or the code compliance issue, in a courtroom years from now as a
precedent to apportioning % of blame and share of resultant damages.
We've had incidents where the insurance adjuster, after getting a copy
of our dog and pony letter wherein the owner's rep has signed off
acknowledging responsibility for the system including ITM and protection
of wet system from freezing, has called us and said "Thanks for making
my job easy".
That letter and the dog and pony show has been MANDATORY standard
operating procedure on EVERY job we do for years. As Russ L says in his
#25 seminar, if you do a lot of work or if you do it for awhile, it's
not IF you have a fire (freezeup, incident) in one of your buildings,
its WHEN you have a....
Think of it as legal preventative maintenance. Far easier now than
later, and heck- maybe you'll get a few extra bucks and install a better
system for the time to write one letter or email.
Glc
Ps I believe the wording is CONTROL the fire, vrs suppression mode
(ESFR).
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bob
Knight
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ceiling Clouds throughout Band / Choir Room
Craig,
I agreed with you on the quantity and closeness of the panels, I was
merely pointing out the fact that an object is not an obstruction just
because it is 48" wide. It's not an obstruction until it exceeds the
48" threshold.
As far as are sprinklers required; it will depend on the actual layout
of the panels. It may be that there are areas were it would be
advisable to place pendants in the panels, while there may be other
areas where this can be avoided. This is why I'm not sold either way.
The layout will dictate where sprinklers will be required. As Garth
mentioned, I think it was Garth, the fire sprinklers are designed to
contain not suppress the fire.
While we all want to see every fire suppressed, this is not the intent.
It is an excellent bonus though that most fires are suppressed by
sprinklers, and I agree that we need to be diligent in our designs so as
not to create systems that will be destined to fail.
Bob K
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com
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