We have multi-disciplined contractors up here. One big one does HVAC,
Electrical and Plumbing. Now I'm sure that there isn't one guy doing
all three. Each of their units have people trained and licensed for the
particular discipline.
I would hope that a plumbing contractor would not expect one guy to
install sprinklers right after he finished plumbing the toilets. We can
hope.....
I wonder though, if a plumber is going to install sprinklers why they
would not have to adhere to the same standards regarding qualifications
for those who do the sprinkler design and license requirements as any
other sprinkler installer?
Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Group
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond
which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and
you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them
get away with inadequate work.
I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade
will get more work done, but not done better.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond
than the sprinkler contractors are.
Bill Minkel, Designer
Western States Fire Protection, Dallas
NFPA Member #2578666
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler
industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the
rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can
not?
I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or
full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time
trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent
exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY
Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to
take responsibility for their own lives and careers.
Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and
they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many,
dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to
character and integrity issues.
I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even
more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a
much larger degree and with less accountability.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm
systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code)
stands on its own.
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the
last time I checked.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage
Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm
contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems.
Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs
sprinklers
as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the
electrical
contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the
electrical system.
As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or
merely
fire safety interests as a whole ?
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the
dirty little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending
on your
perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about
large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers.
Unless
we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up
our
human
and training resources for designers and installers, it will be
impossible
to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are
inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already
being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis.
Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of
worms Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised,
keep in
mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is
one
of several publications in which they're advertising, along with
Rehau
who
manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at
the moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at
plumbers,
then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor
magazine too.
Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Muncy
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers
For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE
that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered
an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors
are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they
have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed
under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected,
they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal.
Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in
NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use
use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the
International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi-
purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on
distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D
committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By
the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who
recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the
IPC.
Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems
in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt
the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have
a standalone system.
When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the
requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the
appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number
of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on
the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult
to remove a provision from the code on a local level.
Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007,
each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to
install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big
this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors
don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more
lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees
to.
If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's
just hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the
subject before they jump head-first into the fire protection
business.
Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives!
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote:
> Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser
> for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to
install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought
they were looking > out for > our industry and it's standards, both
written and installed.
>
> Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler
> systems?
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--
Ed Vining
4819 John Muir Rd
Martinez CA 94553
925-228-879
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