I'm with Steve on this. But I would add that if an owner is dealing
with Pyroxylin plastics and solvent extraction, I woould assume that
he would have at least a basic knowledge of these.
At 09:32 PM 4/13/2008, you wrote:
Ray,
Our local jurisdiction requires the OIC with each project and it proves to
be an excellent tool when used properly, especially with storage situations.
The way I handle it as the EOR, is to explain the document to the owner and
what its function is. I usually lean more towards emphasizing that it is a
safety tool for fire department, so they know what they are dealing with if
they ever respond to a fire at their facility. Then I offer to fill it out
for them and explain it to them, but that they are the ones who must sign it
and will ultimately be responsible for its accuracy. Then they take it
seriously and usually review it closely before signing. In the end, the
responsibility ends up in the right place and everyone is on the same page.
You may want to try that approach, versus signing it yourself - that's
pretty dangerous.
In the end it comes back to the importance of education in our industry.
Owners are not going to understand terms like Pyroxylin plastics or solvent
extraction. If someone doesn't help them fill the form out, they will just
check "no" to everything and claim ignorance later, because they are afraid
any positive responses might cost them more money, additional permitting,
etc.
Good luck,
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Schmid
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE
I should have chosen my words more carefully. I really didn't mean to imply
it should be done without their knowledge. I was trying to emphasize that
the EOR should get in front of the preparation of this document, on the
Owner's behalf. For complex projects (storage or hazmats) the Owner
definitely needs to be in the mix. For routine projects, it's probably not
something they need to be concerned with, because the EOR should be handling
this.
Ray Schmid, P.E.
Schmid and Associates
Fire Protection Engineers
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams
- FPDC
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE
Ray,
You may be treading on dangerous ground submitting a document such as
that without the Owner's knowledge. I would have the Owner sign off
on it before I would affix my stamp. The L work could loom large.
Todd
At 09:07 AM 4/12/2008, you wrote:
>I include a completed Owner's certificate as a block insert on every set of
>contract drawings that are issued with my seal and I sign the certificate
as
>an agent of the Owner. The Owner is probably not even aware this document
>exists (and probably doesn't need to be). I am the EOR, and as such, it is
>my responsibility to evaluate the hazards that will exist and specify
design
>criteria that are acceptable. If limitations need to be placed upon the
use
>of the facility (storage height, commodity class, no parking under the
>drive-up canopy...) those limitations need to be documented with the Owner
>and the AHJ by me (the EOR) before it even gets to the contractor. The
>Owner's certificate, for me, is simply a formality.
>
>
>Ray Schmid, P.E.
>Schmid and Associates
>Fire Protection Engineers
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vince
Sabolik
>Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:03 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE
>
>At 06:09 PM 4/11/2008, you wrote:
> >My understanding is that it is liking pulling teeth to get it and you
> >can only use your fingers
>
>
>...and I'm trying to figure a way to keep me from getting those teeth
>punched out by a lawsuit.
>
>For the hundreth time in recent memory, an owner has told me that his
>insurance carrier has told
>me to design his job to "whatever 13 calls for".
>
>Where have all the risk analysis / underwriters gone? "Whatever 13
>says" could be very different
>between two competing underwriters let alone an
>independent sprinkler designer, a contractor and
>an underwriter. And then there's the schedule....
>
>Besides, my pay grade's probably well under what one of these guys
>get (g???).
>
>So I'm wondering if there's a sweeping change that our industry's
>headed for.
>
>Are there any independent risk people out here who, for a nominal
>fee will acknowledge an owner statement,
>prescribe a sprinkler requirement according to what he's been given
>and we in turn would make it part of a
>design arrangement.
>
>Once upon a time the insurance companies would offer this service to
>the owner ahead of design, review
>the drawings and TAKE THE RISK. But apparently - save for Factory
>Mutual - not anymore. The way things look now,
>"whatever 13 says" will probably lose a building somewhere and
>provide an insurance company a liability exit due to
>them not agreeing with the design that they were reluctant to discuss
>with the owner in the first place.
>
>My $0,000.00 and I'm ready to do $1M worth of listening! /RANT OFF
>
>
>thanks,
>Vince
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Vince Sabolik
>Christi Fire Protection, Inc.
>11351 Pearl Road
>Strongsville, Ohio 44136
>
>T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email:
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080
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