I think these are some very good points, and I must agree that from a liability perspective, the owner's signature on the OIC is preferred. The prototype certificate that appears in the Annex of 13 identifies "the Owner or their representative/agent" as the signatory. Representative or agent is a pretty broad term, but I would presume this means a responsible party authorized by the owner to sign the document on the owner's behalf. This could be someone internal to the owner's organization or their consultant.
As the EOR on a typical project, I have already analyzed the water supply, specified design criteria, defined system zoning and system type, identified hazards and areas of coverage....Assuming the Owner has not modified the hazards present, if there is a fire, the fact that the owner signed the certificate does not change my liability exposure as I am still squarely in the attorney's crosshairs. What the Owner's signature would do is help to demonstrate what conditions were understood to exist at the time the project was performed. All that said, I do like Steve's approach as it is more thorough and places a reasonable level of responsibility on the Owner. Ray Schmid, P.E. Schmid and Associates Fire Protection Engineers -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams - FPDC Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE I'm with Steve on this. But I would add that if an owner is dealing with Pyroxylin plastics and solvent extraction, I woould assume that he would have at least a basic knowledge of these. At 09:32 PM 4/13/2008, you wrote: >Ray, > >Our local jurisdiction requires the OIC with each project and it proves to >be an excellent tool when used properly, especially with storage situations. >The way I handle it as the EOR, is to explain the document to the owner and >what its function is. I usually lean more towards emphasizing that it is a >safety tool for fire department, so they know what they are dealing with if >they ever respond to a fire at their facility. Then I offer to fill it out >for them and explain it to them, but that they are the ones who must sign it >and will ultimately be responsible for its accuracy. Then they take it >seriously and usually review it closely before signing. In the end, the >responsibility ends up in the right place and everyone is on the same page. >You may want to try that approach, versus signing it yourself - that's >pretty dangerous. > >In the end it comes back to the importance of education in our industry. >Owners are not going to understand terms like Pyroxylin plastics or solvent >extraction. If someone doesn't help them fill the form out, they will just >check "no" to everything and claim ignorance later, because they are afraid >any positive responses might cost them more money, additional permitting, >etc. > >Good luck, > > >Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >Fire Protection Engineer >Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >616 Davis Street >Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >904-652-4200 Phone >904-212-0868 Fax > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ray Schmid >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 10:05 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE > >I should have chosen my words more carefully. I really didn't mean to imply >it should be done without their knowledge. I was trying to emphasize that >the EOR should get in front of the preparation of this document, on the >Owner's behalf. For complex projects (storage or hazmats) the Owner >definitely needs to be in the mix. For routine projects, it's probably not >something they need to be concerned with, because the EOR should be handling >this. > >Ray Schmid, P.E. >Schmid and Associates >Fire Protection Engineers > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Williams >- FPDC >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 9:55 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE > >Ray, > >You may be treading on dangerous ground submitting a document such as >that without the Owner's knowledge. I would have the Owner sign off >on it before I would affix my stamp. The L work could loom large. > >Todd > > >At 09:07 AM 4/12/2008, you wrote: > >I include a completed Owner's certificate as a block insert on every set of > >contract drawings that are issued with my seal and I sign the certificate >as > >an agent of the Owner. The Owner is probably not even aware this document > >exists (and probably doesn't need to be). I am the EOR, and as such, it is > >my responsibility to evaluate the hazards that will exist and specify >design > >criteria that are acceptable. If limitations need to be placed upon the >use > >of the facility (storage height, commodity class, no parking under the > >drive-up canopy...) those limitations need to be documented with the Owner > >and the AHJ by me (the EOR) before it even gets to the contractor. The > >Owner's certificate, for me, is simply a formality. > > > > > >Ray Schmid, P.E. > >Schmid and Associates > >Fire Protection Engineers > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vince >Sabolik > >Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 8:03 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Re: OWNER'S CERTIFICATE > > > >At 06:09 PM 4/11/2008, you wrote: > > >My understanding is that it is liking pulling teeth to get it and you > > >can only use your fingers > > > > > >...and I'm trying to figure a way to keep me from getting those teeth > >punched out by a lawsuit. > > > >For the hundreth time in recent memory, an owner has told me that his > >insurance carrier has told > >me to design his job to "whatever 13 calls for". > > > >Where have all the risk analysis / underwriters gone? "Whatever 13 > >says" could be very different > >between two competing underwriters let alone an > >independent sprinkler designer, a contractor and > >an underwriter. And then there's the schedule.... > > > >Besides, my pay grade's probably well under what one of these guys > >get (g???). > > > >So I'm wondering if there's a sweeping change that our industry's > >headed for. > > > >Are there any independent risk people out here who, for a nominal > >fee will acknowledge an owner statement, > >prescribe a sprinkler requirement according to what he's been given > >and we in turn would make it part of a > >design arrangement. > > > >Once upon a time the insurance companies would offer this service to > >the owner ahead of design, review > >the drawings and TAKE THE RISK. But apparently - save for Factory > >Mutual - not anymore. The way things look now, > >"whatever 13 says" will probably lose a building somewhere and > >provide an insurance company a liability exit due to > >them not agreeing with the design that they were reluctant to discuss > >with the owner in the first place. > > > >My $0,000.00 and I'm ready to do $1M worth of listening! /RANT OFF > > > > > >thanks, > >Vince > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Vince Sabolik > >Christi Fire Protection, Inc. > >11351 Pearl Road > >Strongsville, Ohio 44136 > > > >T 440 572-7730 F 440 572-7719 Email: > ><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >Todd G. Williams, PE >Fire Protection Design/Consulting >Stonington, Connecticut >www.fpdc.com >860.535.2080 >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >[email protected] >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, Connecticut www.fpdc.com 860.535.2080 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
