okay Todd so today, what do I do? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams <[email protected]> wrote:
> The big problem is that we do not know what will work. If you design > a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing > what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability > problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the > problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that > needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I > guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition) > > > > At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: > >Brian, "encouraging others to run as well" is hardly a professional > >response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to > >design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a > >hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system > >as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed > >barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the > >documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever > >they move boats. I guess it's a this is what we have deal, deal with > >it...refusing to address a problem really irks me....by the way you > >have so many disclaimers why would you care? See FL Chapter 61G15-27, > >etc > > > >On 5/3/10, den1 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these > > > structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row > > > rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been > no > > > large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for > > > a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. > > > Here are the elements you have to deal with: > > > > > > 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness > > > 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below > > > 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a > fire > > > 4. Possible drainage issues > > > 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire > > > department access > > > 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading by water filled > boats > > > (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4" plug in the hull is going > to > > > gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when > > > leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole. > > > > > > etc, etc. > > > > > > The best???? arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group > > > I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a > > > solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the > > > rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one > line > > > of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads > > > above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem > > > identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength > > > decreases we are increasing the rack loading. > > > > > > This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will > > > continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage > > > other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be > given > > > for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate > full > > > scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues. > > > > > > Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI, > > > President > > > Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI > > > GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC. > > > 8450 Linger Lodge Rd. > > > Bradenton, FL 34202 > > > P: 941-758-2551 > > > F: 941-739-6383 > > > C: 941-928-8138 > > > _________________________________________ > > > Additional Office: > > > Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tom poisal wrote: > > >> the E.O.R. emphatically states "install a NFPA compliant system" > > >> > > >> On 5/3/10, Richardson, R<[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still > specified a > > >>> largely useless standpipe system for piers. The standard requires a > > >>> class > > >>> III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized > to > > >>> class > > >>> II. In other words largely useless for most fire depts.. > > >>> > > >>> Rich Richardson > > >>> Seattle Fire Department > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: [email protected] > > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14 > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Subject: RE: boat storage > > >>> > > >>> Check in NFPA 303 also. 303 has supposedly equated racked boat > storage > > >>> to > > >>> group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13. > > >>> > > >>> Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas > systems > > >>> (Vortex). > > >>> > > >>> NFPA 303, 2006 > > >>> 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage. > > >>> 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings, > > >>> an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be > > >>> installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted > > >>> by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3. > > >>> 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be > > >>> required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel > > >>> racks where provided with one of the following: > > >>> (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised > > >>> by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire > > >>> Alarm Code > > >>> (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised > > >>> by a local protective signaling system complying with > > >>> NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of > > >>> 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible > > >>> (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are > > >>> not technically feasible > > >>> 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected > > >>> by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable > > >>> to the authority having jurisdiction. > > >>> 6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply > > >>> with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for > > >>> the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored > > >>> on solid shelves. > > >>> 6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within > > >>> 100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department > > >>> connection serving fire protection systems. > > >>> 6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections > > >>> or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable > > >>> to the authority having jurisdiction. > > >>> > > >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET > > >>> Fire Protection Specialist > > >>> Mechanical Department > > >>> CH2MHILL > > >>> Lockwood Greene > > >>> 1500 International Drive > > >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > > >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> http://www.ch2m.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: [email protected] > > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of tom > poisal > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM > > >>> To: sprinklerforum > > >>> Subject: boat storage > > >>> > > >>> Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking > that > > >>> ESFR > > >>> 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr > to > > >>> flr > > >>> is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ? > > >>> Tom Poisal, CET > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >>> > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >>> > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > >>> > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > [email protected] > > >>> > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > >-- > >Tom Poisal, CET > >_______________________________________________ > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > >[email protected] > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > >to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > Todd G. Williams, PE > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > Stonington, CT > 860.535.2080 > www.fpdc.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Tom Poisal, CET _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
