What Ron said. The EOR said "install an NFPA compliant system" and there is no NFPA compliant system. Kick it back and let him figure it out. Make sure you copy everyone except you mother-in-law.
At 08:42 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: >okay Todd so today, what do I do? > >On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams <t...@fpdc.com> wrote: > > > The big problem is that we do not know what will work. If you design > > a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing > > what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability > > problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the > > problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that > > needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I > > guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition) > > > > > > > > At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: > > >Brian, "encouraging others to run as well" is hardly a professional > > >response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to > > >design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a > > >hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system > > >as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed > > >barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the > > >documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever > > >they move boats. I guess it's a this is what we have deal, deal with > > >it...refusing to address a problem really irks me....by the way you > > >have so many disclaimers why would you care? See FL Chapter 61G15-27, > > >etc > > > > > >On 5/3/10, den1 <d...@global-fire.com> wrote: > > > > Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these > > > > structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row > > > > rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been > > no > > > > large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for > > > > a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. > > > > Here are the elements you have to deal with: > > > > > > > > 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness > > > > 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below > > > > 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a > > fire > > > > 4. Possible drainage issues > > > > 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire > > > > department access > > > > 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading by water filled > > boats > > > > (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4" plug in the hull is going > > to > > > > gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when > > > > leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole. > > > > > > > > etc, etc. > > > > > > > > The best???? arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group > > > > I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a > > > > solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the > > > > rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one > > line > > > > of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads > > > > above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem > > > > identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength > > > > decreases we are increasing the rack loading. > > > > > > > > This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will > > > > continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage > > > > other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be > > given > > > > for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate > > full > > > > scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues. > > > > > > > > Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI, > > > > President > > > > Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI > > > > GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC. > > > > 8450 Linger Lodge Rd. > > > > Bradenton, FL 34202 > > > > P: 941-758-2551 > > > > F: 941-739-6383 > > > > C: 941-928-8138 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > Additional Office: > > > > Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tom poisal wrote: > > > >> the E.O.R. emphatically states "install a NFPA compliant system" > > > >> > > > >> On 5/3/10, Richardson, R<r.richard...@seattle.gov> wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> Be leery of NFPA 303, last time I checked that standard still > > specified a > > > >>> largely useless standpipe system for piers. The standard requires a > > > >>> class > > > >>> III standpipe at some length but allows the supply pipe to be sized > > to > > > >>> class > > > >>> II. In other words largely useless for most fire depts.. > > > >>> > > > >>> Rich Richardson > > > >>> Seattle Fire Department > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of > > > >>> craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 14:14 > > > >>> To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> Subject: RE: boat storage > > > >>> > > > >>> Check in NFPA 303 also. 303 has supposedly equated racked boat > > storage > > > >>> to > > > >>> group A plastics storage as referenced in NFPA 13. > > > >>> > > > >>> Other options include water mist and Hybrid water based inert gas > > systems > > > >>> (Vortex). > > > >>> > > > >>> NFPA 303, 2006 > > > >>> 6.3.4 Indoor Rack Storage. > > > >>> 6.3.4.1* Where boats are stored on multilevel racks in buildings, > > > >>> an approved automatic fire-extinguishing system shall be > > > >>> installed throughout the building unless otherwise permitted > > > >>> by 6.3.4.2 or 6.3.4.3. > > > >>> 6.3.4.2 An automatic fire-extinguishing system shall not be > > > >>> required for buildings less than 5000 ft2 (465 m2) having multilevel > > > >>> racks where provided with one of the following: > > > >>> (1) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised > > > >>> by a central station complying with NFPA 72, National Fire > > > >>> Alarm Code > > > >>> (2) An automatic fire detection and alarm system supervised > > > >>> by a local protective signaling system complying with > > > >>> NFPA 72, National Fire Alarm Code, if the provisions of > > > >>> 6.3.4.2(1) are not technically feasible > > > >>> (3) A full-time watch service if the provisions of 6.3.4.2(1) are > > > >>> not technically feasible > > > >>> 6.3.4.3* Existing facilities shall not be required to be protected > > > >>> by an automatic fire-extinguishing system where acceptable > > > >>> to the authority having jurisdiction. > > > >>> 6.3.4.4 The design of automatic sprinkler systems shall comply > > > >>> with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for > > > >>> the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, for Group A Plastics stored > > > >>> on solid shelves. > > > >>> 6.3.5* An approved water supply shall be provided within > > > >>> 100 ft (30 m) of the pier/land intersection or fire department > > > >>> connection serving fire protection systems. > > > >>> 6.3.6 Access between water supplies and pier/land intersections > > > >>> or fire department connections shall be by roadway acceptable > > > >>> to the authority having jurisdiction. > > > >>> > > > >>> Craig L. Prahl, CET > > > >>> Fire Protection Specialist > > > >>> Mechanical Department > > > >>> CH2MHILL > > > >>> Lockwood Greene > > > >>> 1500 International Drive > > > >>> Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 > > > >>> Direct - 864.599.4102 > > > >>> Fax - 864.599.8439 > > > >>> craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > > >>> http://www.ch2m.com > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > > >>> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom > > poisal > > > >>> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM > > > >>> To: sprinklerforum > > > >>> Subject: boat storage > > > >>> > > > >>> Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking > > that > > > >>> ESFR > > > >>> 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr > > to > > > >>> flr > > > >>> is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ? > > > >>> Tom Poisal, CET > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > >>> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >>> > > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > >>> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >>> > > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > > >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > >>> Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > >>> > > > >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: > > supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > >>> > > > >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > > >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > > > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Tom Poisal, CET > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > > >To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > Todd G. Williams, PE > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > Stonington, CT > > 860.535.2080 > > www.fpdc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org > > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > > > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org> > > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > >-- >Tom Poisal, CET >_______________________________________________ >Sprinklerforum mailing list >Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org >http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > >For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org > >To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
