Chris, Back to this one boys and girls. I respectfully disagree. NFPA 13, 2010 states, "An antifreeze solution shall be prepared with a freezing point below the expected minimum temperature for the locality."
I'm not sure why you wouldn't use the record low to be safe. A strong wind can lower temperatures in attics and concealed spaces quickly. As the EOR or the designer I really don't think it is worth chancing temperature and wind combinations (and don't get someone started on wind-chill - I'm using wind to indicate that it can cool an area [attic or concealed space] quicker if the wind is blowing in through holes, seams, missing or misplaced insulation, and so on) and not planning for conceivable low temperatures in the modern era. Minneapolis record low for February (2nd) 1996 is -32, -27 in December 1996, January is -32 in 1977, -34 in 1970 according to the National Weather Service. I don't see 50/50 Glycerin or PG appropriate for most of Minnesota, part of Iowa, most of 'Nort' Dakota, or Wisconsin.... Scott Futrell (763) 425-1001 Office (612) 759-5556 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 1:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Anti-Freeze I believe 50/50 is still fine. I believe we are to use the average mean low temp (or something like that if I got the name wrong) not the all time record. Around here record is -36 mean low is -25. Sornsin's are may be a couple lower. Second the reported temps are the first ice crystals not the burst temp where things break. Burst is about 20 lower. Try it in your kitchen with dry ice. And yes I have. Now at reported temps its like a milk shake and won't flow well but will eventually clear. And C just because the air temp is what ever the AF won't be. Record lows are for a short time. Factor in thermal lag, internal convection currents and the location of the piping (like in a slightly warmer attic) and most of the US including most of SD, MN an MA will be fine with 50/50. Chris Cahill Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "George Church" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 12:24:38 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Anti-Freeze Gregg, I believe the TC members have a week to chaneg their minds after reading the other memeber's comments in the initial vote, so I don;t think anything is cast in stone except Chris stating NFPA recommends leaving em wet for now- and assuming, i'm sure, that before freezing weather, there will be a larger knowledge base and a direction in which to run. potential TIAs were either a ban or a requirement to use premix 50-50. Guess global warming better head toward the Sornsin boys cause i'll bet 50-50 doesn't meet their needs at -35. glc -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 12:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Anti-Freeze I have reviewed the July 2010 TIA, so if you have a system that is in design as we speak, if you use a 50% or less factory premixed solution, it is acceptable? The revised TIA, I think states that it is? Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, July 09, 2010 8:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Anti-Freeze Below is the AFSA Alert to our members. Additional testing is underway. The NFPA and Fire Protection Research Foundation with the support of the sprinkler industry are moving incredibly fast. There was a NFPA 13 TCC meeting on this subject earlier this year and the initial fire testing was completed in a few months indicating that a threat exists and that it appears to be restricted to a narrow scenario in he kitchen. A second round of more detailed testing has been launched to determine definitively whether other locations may display similar consequences and what levels of concentrations are safe to be used. These tests are underway and will also be completed in an amazingly short period of time (doing things in weeks instead of many months/years). Since the Truckee fire has been mentioned, I'd like to say proceed with cation. The Fire Department report says there is not enough information yet to draw any conclusions and the other report casually jumps to a broad conclusion. There are some very interesting explosion patterns that should have been addressed as part of that conclusion. Roland AFSA Member Alert July 7, 2010 NFPA issues safety alert regarding antifreeze in residential sprinklers On July 6, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) issued a safety alert recommending that residential fire sprinkler systems containing antifreeze should be drained and the antifreeze replaced with water. The alert follows a research study and an initial set of fire tests conducted after a fire incident raised concerns about antifreeze solutions in residential sprinkler systems. The incident involved a grease fire in a kitchen where a sprinkler with a high concentration of antifreeze deployed. The fire resulted in a single fatality and serious injury to another person. AFSA has been and continues to follow these developments closely. We have urged that testing be conducted as quickly as possible, with the hope that the results and subsequent standards modifications can be made before cold weather arrives. AFSA is mindful that NFPA is obligated to take strong positions in support of life safety and we anticipated a moratorium on the use of antifreeze until testing was complete, but we were surprised by the recommendation to drain existing systems and replace antifreeze with water. NFPA and the NFPA Research Foundation have put this issue as a top priority. They are moving very rapidly to complete testing on this issue. NFPA anticipates that testing will be complete, and Tentative Interim Amendments (TIAs) will be addressed prior to the Standards Council meeting in August. Their goal is to have recommendations or standards modifications prior to the arrival of the "cold season." AFSA will continue to work closely with NFPA and keep you informed on future developments. Expect to hear more soon. Complete information is available from NFPA at www.nfpa.org/antifreeze/. On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:25 AM, Autry, David wrote: > Any comments about the Safety Alert from NFPA concerning anti-freeze > in residential fire sprinkler systems? > > I'm not comfortable requiring these systems to be drained down, > filled with water and no real fix in place. > > David Autry > Plans Examiner > Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
