Brad, At issue is the notion of horizontal fire separation assembly being the same as a firewalls.
There are two building separation concepts; 1) open space which allows adjacent buildings to burn down without effecting another or 2) a fire wall which allows adjacent buildings to burn down without effecting another. In both cases the fire building is consumed without affecting adjacent buildings. Obviously distance speaks for itself. The concept of a firewall delineating separate buildings is founded on a critical performance criteria ; "2006 IBC 702.1 FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, WITH SUFFICIENT STRUCTURAL STABILITY UNDER FIRE CONDITIONS TO ALLOW COLLAPSE OF CONSTRUCTION ON EITHER SIDE without collapse of the wall." So I ask, how does a horizontal fire assembly comply with this critical performance requirement ?. The answer it doesn't. But to answer your question; "if a 2-hour wall between light hazard and something less than light hazard is called equivalent to a separate building by the officials, then what do you rename it to?" No need to rename it since a 2 hour fall WALL qualifies the construction as two separate buildings, so 13 in the non residential BUILDING and 13R is the residential BUILDING. John Drucker Jr CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 1:17 PM To: 'John Drucker'; [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R John, Good idea with the name change, but it would not satisfy those whom want to see nothing but sky surrounding nothing but residential-- -----Original Message----- From: John Drucker [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:00 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R David, Exactly. Where all this "hybrid" stuff came from is beyond me. If you have a building that qualifies as NFPA-13R then the system is a 13R System. NFPA-13R merely refers back to certain sections of 13 as a technical reference not to imply that the system is somehow two systems, or a 13R/13 system. Hypothetically if 13R was a standalone standard, i.e. copying and pasteing the needed sections of 13, there wouldn't be any confusion since users would never venture beyond 13R. But we all know that it would increase the cost of the standard. One simple change would solve the mixed use conundrum; NFPA 13R: "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in RESIDENTIAL Occupancies up to and Including Four Stories in Height". To NFPA 13R: "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in RESIDENTIAL BUILDINGS up to and Including Four Stories in Height". John Drucker, CET Fire Protection Subcode Official Fire/Building/Electrical Inspector Fire Marshals Office Borough of Red Bank, NJ -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Autry, David Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 10:23 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R I believe you can ONLY have a 13 building or a 13R building. You can't mix and match. One or the other. David Autry Plans Examiner Nebraska State Fire Marshal's Office 246 S. 14th Street Lincoln, NE 68508 402-471-9659 402-471-3118 fax www.sfm.ne.gov ** Note new email address: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:20 AM To: 'Art Tiroly'; [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R Residential heads and their calc rules are great where you can use them. You would not be able to use them in say the physical therapy room, whether it was 13 OR 13R. By true occupancy separation, you eliminate a lot of bathroom and closet heads, AND attic sprinklers. -----Original Message----- From: Art Tiroly [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:02 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R The Ohio IBC has allowed and encourages the use of residential sprinklers in "I" occupancies. We have used the residential rules in 13 with 4 head calc areas for many years. But attics etc are required for 100% sprinkler coverage due to NFPA 13 requirements per IBC for the I occupancy. ART ATCO Fire Protection -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R If this question is raised before the Arch finalizes the design, then the common "I" areas (core) can be separated from the "R" (sleeping wings) with a 2-hour wall, then 13 AND 13R apply, the overall cost is probably reduced, and there is nothing wrong from a fire protection view. -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Adams [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2010 4:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Question regarding NFPA 13 vs. NFPA 13R For a single-story *assisted living* center, can 13R be used for the system design ? If it can be designed per NFPA 13R, at what point would it need to be protected per NFPA 13 ? I realize that 13R covers residential units up to 4 levels, but where this is an assisted living center, does this make a difference ? Dan Adams Designer Interwest Fire Protection, Inc. 404 Ironwood Drive Salt Lake City, UT 84115 Phone: (801) 746-4040 Fax: (801) 746-4043 [email protected] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. 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