Don't anybody be packing any Hoover Boards too tightly, especially in combustible containers. On Feb 26, 2016 5:05 PM, "Pat Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I would agree with Bruce's assessment, NFPA 484 applies to combustible > metals. Among these metals are some scary things like lithium, sodium, > potassium, and magnesium. This standard does not address lithium used in > energy storage cells (aka batteries) or the storage of them. > > Please allow me to chime in with a peeve that I've developed that stems > from this topic (speaking in general, not specific to this forum). I would > caution anyone in the discussion to be aware of the difference between > lithium-ion batteries and lithium batteries. These are in fact quite > different animals and I've often seen discussion over the issue of 'lithium > batteries' when in fact the topic is actually lithium-ion. Here's a quick > comparison: > > Lithium-ion battery: rechargeable, uses salts of lithium (not lithium in > its elemental state), very common as consumer battery (cell phones, > laptops, tablets, portable power tools, the list goes on....) > > Lithium battery: lithium is present in its elemental metal state, not > rechargeable, less common as consumer battery (typically a replacement for > conventional alkaline batteries - your C, D, AAA, AA cells but with more > kick) > > The jury is still out on how to deal with these challenging products, both > of which are rapidly becoming ubiquitous in our modern world. I'm no > chemist but from what I've gleaned in reading is that the biggest issue > with the lithium-ion battery fire is not the presence of lithium but the > tremendous energy storage that these cells are capable of. Thermal runaway > can occur when stored in tight proximity in packaging, be it in a warehouse > or when being transported. > > For fire with lithium-ion batteries the consensus is cooling, i.e. water - > and lots of it. What this translates to in density I have no idea - this is > what FM, FAA and the aerospace industry, and many others are trying to nail > down. > > Cheers, > > Pat Thompson > ATS Alaska > Direct: 907-375-4176 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:13 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Lithium battery storage > > Using NFPA 484 would be similar to using aluminum storage standards for > bringing a B-747-8 in a building. > > The lithium battery industry needs to address this in a reasonable manner. > > The aerosol industry did this. Maybe the lithium battery industry hasn't > done this because they can see what the answers are likely to be. Lots of > water. In-rack sprinklers. Vertical barriers every X lineal feet in racks. > Minimum aisle widths. Maximum pile sizes for non-rack storage. > > > > > > On Feb 26, 2016, at 10:17, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Storing lithium in a battery is probably different. > > Anyone see the guy on the news in a convinience store a few days ago > > whose e-cigarette went haywire in his front jeans pocket? > > It looked like a blowtorch! > >> On Feb 26, 2016 12:08 PM, "michael G" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> Would the lithium battery storage fall under the requirements of > >> storage in NFPA 484? This does address lithium storage, but not > >> lithium battery storage. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Michael Goodis > >> Estimator, Project Manager > >> IL#000635 NICET#135586 > >> Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC > >> 3200 Mike Padgett HWY > >> Augusta, GA 30906 > >> Office- (706)790-3473 > >> Cell- (706) 220-8822 > >> Fax: (706) 738-2119 > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >> On Behalf Of David Blackwell > >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 10:32 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage > >> > >> FYI - In case some of you were not aware, the term has changed to SDS > >> and the requirements for the forms being produced now have changed. > >> See the OSHA website at > >> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/effectivedates.html > >> > >> The following section of text was extracted [in part] from a document > >> linked from the main OSHA HCS page at > >> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/: > >> > >> The Hazard Communication standard (HCS) has been revised to align > >> with the United Nations Globally Harmonized System of Classification > >> and Labeling of Chemicals (GHS Revision 3, 2009). This includes > >> updates to the requirements for labeling and for safety data sheets > (SDSs). > >> [...]changes in enforcement due to the release of the revised HCS > >> published in the Federal Register on March 26, 2012. The revised > >> standard changes "hazard determination" to the specific requirements > >> for hazard classification of chemicals, standardizes label elements > >> for containers of hazardous\ chemicals, and specifies the format and > >> required content for SDSs. [...] Chemicals must be evaluated in > >> accordance with specific guidance outlined in Appendices A and B of > >> the standard. The hazard classification will result in the > >> specification of pictograms, signal word, hazard statements, and > >> precautionary statements which must be included on the labels. > >> Specifications for these label elements are provided in Appendix C of > >> the standard. The SDSs will have a standardized 16-section format > >> (see Appendix D of the standard) and includes the information from > >> the hazard classification (e.g., hazard class, pictogram). > >> > >> > >> Respectfully, > >> > >> David Blackwell > >> > >> David Blackwell, P.E. > >> Chief Engineer > >> (803)896-9833 > >> > >> Office of State Fire Marshal > >> 141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203 > >> http://scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ > >> (803)896-9800 > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >> On Behalf Of [email protected] > >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:57 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage > >> > >> *** SCDLLR NOTICE *** This email is from an external email address. > >> Please use caution when deciding whether to open any attachments or > >> when clicking links inside the email. > >> > >> You have to look at a consensus amongst data, not just one MSDS or > >> not just one study. > >> > >> In this particular case there are no absolutes, no guarantees of any > >> results. Take the info provided and use that to make your best case > >> for a methodology. > >> > >> > >> > >> Craig L. Prahl > >> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > >> CH2MHILL > >> Lockwood Greene > >> 1500 International Drive > >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 > >> Direct - 864.599.4102 > >> Fax - 864.599.8439 > >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > >> [email protected]] > >> On Behalf Of å... .... > >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:52 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Lithium battery storage > >> > >> Do we realize who writes those MSDS ? Although MSDS content has gotten > >> better over the years... just saying think about the quality of > >> analyses in some of those MSDS's. > >> > >> This commodity is non-standardized territory. > >> If ecological considerations are a factor, then dump loads of water > >> warrants a second look. > >> > >> We might be able to guarantee control of a Li-battery fire with lots > >> of water, but until we get *LOTS* of water, we can't guarantee > >> extinguishment using water only, either. > >> > >> The engineers at Boeing probably have some experience with suppressing > >> Li-battery fires. Even though 'in safety there should be no > secrets...' > >> tell that to the economists. > >> > >> > >> Scot Deal > >> Excelsior Risk/Fire Engineering > >> Scot Deal > >> Excelsior Risk/Fire En > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink > >> ler.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
