Call me a Conservative, but perhaps until otherwise specified just exchange 'lithium battery' with FIREWORKS on the subject line :) On Feb 26, 2016 5:20 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Don't anybody be packing any Hoover Boards too tightly, especially in > combustible containers. > On Feb 26, 2016 5:05 PM, "Pat Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I would agree with Bruce's assessment, NFPA 484 applies to combustible >> metals. Among these metals are some scary things like lithium, sodium, >> potassium, and magnesium. This standard does not address lithium used in >> energy storage cells (aka batteries) or the storage of them. >> >> Please allow me to chime in with a peeve that I've developed that stems >> from this topic (speaking in general, not specific to this forum). I would >> caution anyone in the discussion to be aware of the difference between >> lithium-ion batteries and lithium batteries. These are in fact quite >> different animals and I've often seen discussion over the issue of 'lithium >> batteries' when in fact the topic is actually lithium-ion. Here's a quick >> comparison: >> >> Lithium-ion battery: rechargeable, uses salts of lithium (not lithium in >> its elemental state), very common as consumer battery (cell phones, >> laptops, tablets, portable power tools, the list goes on....) >> >> Lithium battery: lithium is present in its elemental metal state, not >> rechargeable, less common as consumer battery (typically a replacement for >> conventional alkaline batteries - your C, D, AAA, AA cells but with more >> kick) >> >> The jury is still out on how to deal with these challenging products, >> both of which are rapidly becoming ubiquitous in our modern world. I'm no >> chemist but from what I've gleaned in reading is that the biggest issue >> with the lithium-ion battery fire is not the presence of lithium but the >> tremendous energy storage that these cells are capable of. Thermal runaway >> can occur when stored in tight proximity in packaging, be it in a warehouse >> or when being transported. >> >> For fire with lithium-ion batteries the consensus is cooling, i.e. water >> - and lots of it. What this translates to in density I have no idea - this >> is what FM, FAA and the aerospace industry, and many others are trying to >> nail down. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Pat Thompson >> ATS Alaska >> Direct: 907-375-4176 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:13 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Lithium battery storage >> >> Using NFPA 484 would be similar to using aluminum storage standards for >> bringing a B-747-8 in a building. >> >> The lithium battery industry needs to address this in a reasonable manner. >> >> The aerosol industry did this. Maybe the lithium battery industry hasn't >> done this because they can see what the answers are likely to be. Lots of >> water. In-rack sprinklers. Vertical barriers every X lineal feet in racks. >> Minimum aisle widths. Maximum pile sizes for non-rack storage. >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 2016, at 10:17, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > >> > Storing lithium in a battery is probably different. >> > Anyone see the guy on the news in a convinience store a few days ago >> > whose e-cigarette went haywire in his front jeans pocket? >> > It looked like a blowtorch! >> >> On Feb 26, 2016 12:08 PM, "michael G" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Would the lithium battery storage fall under the requirements of >> >> storage in NFPA 484? This does address lithium storage, but not >> >> lithium battery storage. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Michael Goodis >> >> Estimator, Project Manager >> >> IL#000635 NICET#135586 >> >> Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC >> >> 3200 Mike Padgett HWY >> >> Augusta, GA 30906 >> >> Office- (706)790-3473 >> >> Cell- (706) 220-8822 >> >> Fax: (706) 738-2119 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> >> [email protected]] >> >> On Behalf Of David Blackwell >> >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 10:32 AM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage >> >> >> >> FYI - In case some of you were not aware, the term has changed to SDS >> >> and the requirements for the forms being produced now have changed. >> >> See the OSHA website at >> >> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/effectivedates.html >> >> >> >> The following section of text was extracted [in part] from a document >> >> linked from the main OSHA HCS page at >> >> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/: >> >> >> >> The Hazard Communication standard (HCS) has been revised to align >> >> with the United Nations Globally Harmonized System of Classification >> >> and Labeling of Chemicals (GHS Revision 3, 2009). This includes >> >> updates to the requirements for labeling and for safety data sheets >> (SDSs). >> >> [...]changes in enforcement due to the release of the revised HCS >> >> published in the Federal Register on March 26, 2012. The revised >> >> standard changes "hazard determination" to the specific requirements >> >> for hazard classification of chemicals, standardizes label elements >> >> for containers of hazardous\ chemicals, and specifies the format and >> >> required content for SDSs. [...] Chemicals must be evaluated in >> >> accordance with specific guidance outlined in Appendices A and B of >> >> the standard. The hazard classification will result in the >> >> specification of pictograms, signal word, hazard statements, and >> >> precautionary statements which must be included on the labels. >> >> Specifications for these label elements are provided in Appendix C of >> >> the standard. The SDSs will have a standardized 16-section format >> >> (see Appendix D of the standard) and includes the information from >> >> the hazard classification (e.g., hazard class, pictogram). >> >> >> >> >> >> Respectfully, >> >> >> >> David Blackwell >> >> >> >> David Blackwell, P.E. >> >> Chief Engineer >> >> (803)896-9833 >> >> >> >> Office of State Fire Marshal >> >> 141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203 >> >> http://scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ >> >> (803)896-9800 >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> >> [email protected]] >> >> On Behalf Of [email protected] >> >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:57 AM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage >> >> >> >> *** SCDLLR NOTICE *** This email is from an external email address. >> >> Please use caution when deciding whether to open any attachments or >> >> when clicking links inside the email. >> >> >> >> You have to look at a consensus amongst data, not just one MSDS or >> >> not just one study. >> >> >> >> In this particular case there are no absolutes, no guarantees of any >> >> results. Take the info provided and use that to make your best case >> >> for a methodology. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Craig L. Prahl >> >> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >> >> CH2MHILL >> >> Lockwood Greene >> >> 1500 International Drive >> >> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >> >> Direct - 864.599.4102 >> >> Fax - 864.599.8439 >> >> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >> >> [email protected]] >> >> On Behalf Of å... .... >> >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:52 AM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Lithium battery storage >> >> >> >> Do we realize who writes those MSDS ? Although MSDS content has >> gotten >> >> better over the years... just saying think about the quality of >> >> analyses in some of those MSDS's. >> >> >> >> This commodity is non-standardized territory. >> >> If ecological considerations are a factor, then dump loads of water >> >> warrants a second look. >> >> >> >> We might be able to guarantee control of a Li-battery fire with lots >> >> of water, but until we get *LOTS* of water, we can't guarantee >> >> extinguishment using water only, either. >> >> >> >> The engineers at Boeing probably have some experience with suppressing >> >> Li-battery fires. Even though 'in safety there should be no >> secrets...' >> >> tell that to the economists. >> >> >> >> >> >> Scot Deal >> >> Excelsior Risk/Fire Engineering >> >> Scot Deal >> >> Excelsior Risk/Fire En >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> >> ler.org _______________________________________________ >> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> >> ler.org >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> >> ler.org >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >> > [email protected] >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >> > er.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >> > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
