I was thinking earlier about another example of difficult to protect product. Detached storage buildings are defined and used for isolation and storage of some oxidizers.
> On Feb 26, 2016, at 15:36, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> wrote: > > Call me a Conservative, but perhaps until otherwise specified just exchange > 'lithium battery' with FIREWORKS on the subject line :) >> On Feb 26, 2016 5:20 PM, "Brad Casterline" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Don't anybody be packing any Hoover Boards too tightly, especially in >> combustible containers. >>> On Feb 26, 2016 5:05 PM, "Pat Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> I would agree with Bruce's assessment, NFPA 484 applies to combustible >>> metals. Among these metals are some scary things like lithium, sodium, >>> potassium, and magnesium. This standard does not address lithium used in >>> energy storage cells (aka batteries) or the storage of them. >>> >>> Please allow me to chime in with a peeve that I've developed that stems >>> from this topic (speaking in general, not specific to this forum). I would >>> caution anyone in the discussion to be aware of the difference between >>> lithium-ion batteries and lithium batteries. These are in fact quite >>> different animals and I've often seen discussion over the issue of 'lithium >>> batteries' when in fact the topic is actually lithium-ion. Here's a quick >>> comparison: >>> >>> Lithium-ion battery: rechargeable, uses salts of lithium (not lithium in >>> its elemental state), very common as consumer battery (cell phones, >>> laptops, tablets, portable power tools, the list goes on....) >>> >>> Lithium battery: lithium is present in its elemental metal state, not >>> rechargeable, less common as consumer battery (typically a replacement for >>> conventional alkaline batteries - your C, D, AAA, AA cells but with more >>> kick) >>> >>> The jury is still out on how to deal with these challenging products, >>> both of which are rapidly becoming ubiquitous in our modern world. I'm no >>> chemist but from what I've gleaned in reading is that the biggest issue >>> with the lithium-ion battery fire is not the presence of lithium but the >>> tremendous energy storage that these cells are capable of. Thermal runaway >>> can occur when stored in tight proximity in packaging, be it in a warehouse >>> or when being transported. >>> >>> For fire with lithium-ion batteries the consensus is cooling, i.e. water >>> - and lots of it. What this translates to in density I have no idea - this >>> is what FM, FAA and the aerospace industry, and many others are trying to >>> nail down. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Pat Thompson >>> ATS Alaska >>> Direct: 907-375-4176 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei >>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 12:13 PM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: Lithium battery storage >>> >>> Using NFPA 484 would be similar to using aluminum storage standards for >>> bringing a B-747-8 in a building. >>> >>> The lithium battery industry needs to address this in a reasonable manner. >>> >>> The aerosol industry did this. Maybe the lithium battery industry hasn't >>> done this because they can see what the answers are likely to be. Lots of >>> water. In-rack sprinklers. Vertical barriers every X lineal feet in racks. >>> Minimum aisle widths. Maximum pile sizes for non-rack storage. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Feb 26, 2016, at 10:17, Brad Casterline <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Storing lithium in a battery is probably different. >>>> Anyone see the guy on the news in a convinience store a few days ago >>>> whose e-cigarette went haywire in his front jeans pocket? >>>> It looked like a blowtorch! >>>>> On Feb 26, 2016 12:08 PM, "michael G" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Would the lithium battery storage fall under the requirements of >>>>> storage in NFPA 484? This does address lithium storage, but not >>>>> lithium battery storage. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Michael Goodis >>>>> Estimator, Project Manager >>>>> IL#000635 NICET#135586 >>>>> Key Fire Protection Enterprises LLC >>>>> 3200 Mike Padgett HWY >>>>> Augusta, GA 30906 >>>>> Office- (706)790-3473 >>>>> Cell- (706) 220-8822 >>>>> Fax: (706) 738-2119 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of David Blackwell >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 10:32 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage >>>>> >>>>> FYI - In case some of you were not aware, the term has changed to SDS >>>>> and the requirements for the forms being produced now have changed. >>>>> See the OSHA website at >>>>> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/effectivedates.html >>>>> >>>>> The following section of text was extracted [in part] from a document >>>>> linked from the main OSHA HCS page at >>>>> https://www.osha.gov/dsg/hazcom/: >>>>> >>>>> The Hazard Communication standard (HCS) has been revised to align >>>>> with the United Nations Globally Harmonized System of Classification >>>>> and Labeling of Chemicals (GHS Revision 3, 2009). This includes >>>>> updates to the requirements for labeling and for safety data sheets >>> (SDSs). >>>>> [...]changes in enforcement due to the release of the revised HCS >>>>> published in the Federal Register on March 26, 2012. The revised >>>>> standard changes "hazard determination" to the specific requirements >>>>> for hazard classification of chemicals, standardizes label elements >>>>> for containers of hazardous\ chemicals, and specifies the format and >>>>> required content for SDSs. [...] Chemicals must be evaluated in >>>>> accordance with specific guidance outlined in Appendices A and B of >>>>> the standard. The hazard classification will result in the >>>>> specification of pictograms, signal word, hazard statements, and >>>>> precautionary statements which must be included on the labels. >>>>> Specifications for these label elements are provided in Appendix C of >>>>> the standard. The SDSs will have a standardized 16-section format >>>>> (see Appendix D of the standard) and includes the information from >>>>> the hazard classification (e.g., hazard class, pictogram). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Respectfully, >>>>> >>>>> David Blackwell >>>>> >>>>> David Blackwell, P.E. >>>>> Chief Engineer >>>>> (803)896-9833 >>>>> >>>>> Office of State Fire Marshal >>>>> 141 Monticello Trail | Columbia, SC 29203 >>>>> http://scfiremarshal.llronline.com/ >>>>> (803)896-9800 >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:57 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: RE: Lithium battery storage >>>>> >>>>> *** SCDLLR NOTICE *** This email is from an external email address. >>>>> Please use caution when deciding whether to open any attachments or >>>>> when clicking links inside the email. >>>>> >>>>> You have to look at a consensus amongst data, not just one MSDS or >>>>> not just one study. >>>>> >>>>> In this particular case there are no absolutes, no guarantees of any >>>>> results. Take the info provided and use that to make your best case >>>>> for a methodology. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig L. Prahl >>>>> Fire Protection Group Lead/SME >>>>> CH2MHILL >>>>> Lockwood Greene >>>>> 1500 International Drive >>>>> Spartanburg, SC 29303 >>>>> Direct - 864.599.4102 >>>>> Fax - 864.599.8439 >>>>> CH2MHILL Extension 74102 >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: >>>>> [email protected]] >>>>> On Behalf Of å... .... >>>>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 9:52 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Lithium battery storage >>>>> >>>>> Do we realize who writes those MSDS ? Although MSDS content has >>> gotten >>>>> better over the years... just saying think about the quality of >>>>> analyses in some of those MSDS's. >>>>> >>>>> This commodity is non-standardized territory. >>>>> If ecological considerations are a factor, then dump loads of water >>>>> warrants a second look. >>>>> >>>>> We might be able to guarantee control of a Li-battery fire with lots >>>>> of water, but until we get *LOTS* of water, we can't guarantee >>>>> extinguishment using water only, either. >>>>> >>>>> The engineers at Boeing probably have some experience with suppressing >>>>> Li-battery fires. Even though 'in safety there should be no >>> secrets...' >>>>> tell that to the economists. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scot Deal >>>>> Excelsior Risk/Fire Engineering >>>>> Scot Deal >>>>> Excelsior Risk/Fire En >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >>>>> ler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >>>>> ler.org _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >>>>> ler.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >>>>> ler.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl >>>> er.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> >>> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org >>> >> > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
