Let's examine what Doug Grow is saying, shall we?
> In Minneapolis schools, 68 percent of the kids
> qualify for free or reduced meals. In Owatonna,
> 23 percent qualify.
So, if you're poor, you are less likely to be
educatable even given the excellent system in the twin
cities. Do I have this right?
Well I am sure that the present day stastistics would
bear Doug out. However as an anctedotal bit of
information I submit that I qualified for free or
reduced meals as a student, so did my four brothers
and sisters, so did most of our close friends. We
lived in a neighborhood that was very much like
frogtown or the Eastside; most of our friends were
kids of Mexican immigrants or immigrants themselves.
Everyone I grew up with that didn't get killed or get
sent to jail graduated high school, and many of us
went on to college.
What is different today? What happened?
> In Minneapolis, 23 percent of the students have
> limited English skills. In Owatonna, 7.1 percent
> have issues with English.
I love this one because it highlights one of the big
problems with the public education industry today.
No one is going to argue that it's pretty well damn
near impossible to teach kids in english who don't
speak english.
For that reason, schools get extra cash to assist them
in getting the kids proficient in english.
So what do the public schools do with immigrant kids?
Assign them an ELL class and then "mainstream" them
with rest of the student body for everything else. And
guess what? It don't work very well does it?
Now we are expecting a couple thousand new Hmong kids,
and we know that their predecessors didn't do so well
with mainstreaming so what are we going to do this
time?
Why not try teaching them english *first*, before
anything else? If it takes two years for a kid to be
able to understand his teachers so be it! The
alternative is to let them float along for eight or
ten years learning nothing.
> In Minneapolis, by the way, 27 percent of the
> students are white. In Owatonna, 85 percent are
> white.
Where do you go with this one? Grow (and Tim) takes it
right into the tank.
> If, for example, you use the Minnesota
> basic-skills reading test as a statement of the
> quality of the education offered by the
> Minneapolis and Owatonna districts, you likely >
can come up with any conclusion you want.
>
> In fact, 81.16 percent of the Owatonna
> eighth-graders passed the test. Just 52.36 of >
all Minneapolis eighth-graders passed. But, at >
the risk of Day-like stereotyping, if only white >
eighth-graders are tallied, Minneapolis eighth->
graders are even with the same demographic from >
Owatonna and outperform Owatonna kids in math.
>
> The point being, that the demographics between Mpls
> or St. Paul and
> outstate schools districts are radically different
> and comparisons at
> the best are very difficult. So, on what basis is
> Dick Day judging
> Mpls and St. Paul schools?
I'm glad that Doug used the BST as a measurement. When
we say "basic" we mean real basic. Amazing how so many
kids cannot pass this test of the most rudimentary
skills manage to do so much better on the MCE's..I
wonder if that's because the MCE's were created using
the "profiles of learning" as their model?
Let's get this clear Tim. Are you saying that the
color of a kids skin determines scholastic
achievement? Cause that sure as hell is what Grow's
saying (and he's got some brass cajones to drag Day
into that, Day said nothing of the sort).
I can't speak for Dick Day, but I expect that a public
school would have the same expectations for every kid
irregardless of skin color.
Here's a tip for all you "progressive" thinkers out
there from an 'ol redneck conservative: It's not skin
color, it ain't ethnic background, it's the lack of
responsible fathers in way too many black kids lives.
But ya just *can't* say *that* can you?
It's political opportunism and bald faced pandering
that keeps this situation from being put in it's
proper light; it stinks, it *sucks*!
Here's where you can compare public and private Tim.
Take a stroll over to St. Peter Claver school and get
an education on education for yourself.
> Is the fact that Mpls and St. Paul schools have
> student populations
> coming from to school less prepared, economically
> disadvantaged, and
> less experience with the Enlish langauge - is that a
> reflection of
> the management of St. Paul schools?
> I don't think so....!
What happens to these kids 5 days a week for nine
months of every year is.
> But, blanket condemnations of MPLS and ST. PAUL
> schools (in my
> opinion) reflect a real lack of understanding of the
> actual situation
> and a real lack of interest in finding real
> solutions.
So (in my opinion) do blanket defenses. I also resent
the implication that I have not spent many hours
discussing solutions here and elsewhere. I may not
have the answers straight Tim, but I damn well can
identify a problem when I see one.
TJSwift
Cherokee Park Protectorate
ps for Mary Zanmiller: TUPAK SHAKUR! ROTFL <really>!
Mary, you are headed for a *big*, successful career in
public education!
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