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In regards to the transit & streetcar posts - there have been several good questions worth exploring, and I am particularly interested in Eric Hare's suggestion about getting District Councils to identify local transit needs that the city could then promote to the powers that be. Minneapolis has done a much better job of doing this type of thing - including passing a policy plan called "Transit First" that recognizes the city's road system cannot handle the additional traffic that would be generated by its housing and business development goals. They recognize they need the city's transportation system to adapt to give people better options so that they get out of their cars. The city of St. Paul needs to be sure its development plans fit our transportation system as well. I have two major points to contest from other posts. First is that many posts have basically been focusing on whether or not bus & rail transit "pays for itself" through fares gathered. This ignores the fact that roads do not come close to paying for themselves. A 2003 report by the State Auditor calculated at least 35% of the costs of county roads and 60% of the costs of city roads are paid for with property taxes. State roads also get a good chunk of general fund $ - though I don't have the exact numbers. Development generated along lines is also a major issue. For example: McGough companies have announced a $600 million development at the 28th Ave LRT station in Bloomington that they clearly would not be doing if not for LRT. Secondly, some have suggested that St. Paul and the Twin Cities are not dense enough. We can learn a lot from what is happening in other cities major western "spread out" cities that are investing in major rail and bus transit systems. The StarTrib's Steve Berg recently had an article on the huge FasTracks transit plan approved by voters in Denver. Phoenix also just approved a sales tax that will be going to a combination of transit and roads. In November 2003 Houston passed an initiative to fund a commuter rail and light rail system. Even Los Angeles is changing - in the last 20 years Los Angeles has gone from practically no rapid transit to 400 miles of commuter rail, 8 rapid bus lines, 3 light rail lines and 1 subway. Find out more about how other US cities are investing in transit check out the many articles at http://www.lightrailnow.org. So if residents of Denver, Phoenix, Houston, Salt Lake City and Los Angeles can see the sense of investing in rail and rapid bus transit systems - then the Twin Cities region sure can. If we don't it seems clear to me we are out of touch with what is working in peer cities. As far as streetcars in St. Paul - my organization does not have a position on it at this time. Clearly experience in other cities shows streetcars can be a unique and attractive alternative in certain locations. But it seems to me it will be most successful in a city that has a healthy transit system in place to complement it. So while it is good to envision where we might want streetcars eventually - we first need to get the current transit system back in shape after 5 budget cuts in the last 4 years - leading to higher fares, less service and (surprise!) decreasing ridership. The projected $1 billion state deficit this year does not bode well for transit - or any state agency for that matter. About plans for transit in St. Paul... The Union Depot is the preferred choice for a transportation hub in St. Paul. A group called the LOCATE Task Force exists to keep that idea alive in the heads of public officials the Post Office - and coordinate with other planning groups. For a little map of vision for transit in the St. Paul and the Twin Cities visit http://www.tlcminnesota.org/Factsheets/Transitways.htm Kevin Somdahl-Sands Midway Resident ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:58:51 -0600 From: John Birrenbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Please don't get me wrong with what I am about to write, I am all in favor of Mass Transit and alevieating all of the problems associated with petro-chemically driven vehicles, BUT..... I think the point I was attempting to make is that unlike alot of other cities, we are very spread out, we gave into roads as our main mode of transportation during horse and buggy days, and MN's for some reason have a real tie to their car. Unlike cities that, granted because of cars but also delivery trucks, have developed large expansive underground and above ground tansit systems (like New York city), and still have reached grid lock, we have not reach a point where total gridlock has been achieved (yes we are on our way, but it's not like Rush hour in LA yet). All of which are difficulties to overcome when it comes to mass transit that does what it's designed to do. Get people out of cars and onto buses or rail. They really need a reason to do so. One is cause they see a express bus or train moving past them as they sit in traffic, the other is that it is convenient for them to access. Yes we do have alot of rail lines in the metro area. Why? because we are also (were also) a major hub for freight transit around the northern corridor of the US. That doesn't mean that they can be used (being heavy rail lines, locations, etc.. ) or that the owners will allow such use (frankly if I was an owner of the right of way I wouldn't be looking to add to the liability to maintain the track for commuter rails). We are also a continuely changing community. The developments in St Paul on both sides of the River, which at one time were places of business and housing. Then flood plans changed them to industrial and airports, now we are going back to putting housing and business back down there again. At one time the East side was the place to live and work then not then it was again, Grand Ave at one time was all residential, now it's largely commercial and educational. I recall looking at University Ave and seeing Crack Street, now it's a great street to ride from the Capitol to Mpls, it's thriving. We are a community without any sort of real long term vision of what we want to be, and if we do come up with a vision it only lasts as long as an administration or city council then the vision or focus changes. We are like 7 little cities, each with it's own agenda, crammed into one. With some few exceptions, in such a place it's really hard to put into place something as locked in as RAIL (be it light or trolly cars). There are alternatives to buses that run on Petro products, there are hybrid buses, there are natural gas buses, there are buses that could be designed to run on fuel cell technology developed by NASA in the 60's. For an area that is in a constant state of flux the vast majority of the real transit needs to be in easily changeable routes, that is obtained presently via buses, unobtainable with any sort of rail as the main mode of transportation. Does anyone remember the "Trolly Cars" (actually fancy old fashioned buses) they had running around DT for awhile a few years back? Are they still running? There fuel for the fire :-) -- Sincerely, John Birrenbach W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN === Political & Business Consulting === http://www.birrenbach.com/ ====================================== The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/ ====================================== "Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long periods of time" Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004 +++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 08:11:31 -0800 (PST) From: M Charles Swope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [StPaul] Re: streetcars To: Bruce Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Bruce Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "It seems to me that the number of people on a streetcar had an extra 0. 600 is the stuffed capacity of a three-car lrt train. A modern streetcar may carry 60." While 600 may be a little optimistic (it's based on configurations having two articulated units coupled together), modern streetcars, or trams, running on city streets, certainly have far larger capacities than 60. The Alstom Citadis trams in use in European cities are pretty typical and have a listed capacity of 310 persons depending upon how they're configured. http://www.urbantransport-technology.com/projects/montpellier/montpellier1.h tml Even the San Francisco Muni trams have a capacity of at least 200 persons and they operate on very old, congested and narrow streets (once they leave downtown). Charlie Swope Ward 1 ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:09:41 -0600 From: "Mike Fratto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [StPaul] Re: streetcars To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I can't comment about the ridership of the street car. I can tell you that it is my belief that the ridership went down with the advent of the car. That isn't surprising. Of course, we are now in a different situation. We can no longer add lanes of traffic on most roads, even Grand. So what happens now when the traffic on Grand gets too heavy? I bet some of it moves to the neighborhood streets. By the way, I don't remember Portland's rail system being free. There is a free zone. Just like Salt Lake City has a free zone. While I don't know the considerations involved in deciding on the free zone, I would bet it has something to do with providing people with a means to travel without getting into and out of cars, finding parking, etc. It would be like the trolley system that used to run around St. Paul. Mike Fratto Payne Phalen >>> Bruce Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 11/09/2004 9:31:10 AM >>> It seems to me that the number of people on a streetcar had an extra 0. 600 is the stuffed capacity of a three-car lrt train. A modern streetcar may carry 60. Will these be free as in Portland? If I remember correctly, the average speed of a Portland streetcar is about 10 mph. If you run them down Grand, Selby, or Fort Road (all one lane each direction, you will either have major trouble with cars passing them or cars going through on neighborhood streets. What will happen to the busees on those streets? On the historical side, if you read the annual reports of Twin City Lines, you see that the peak streetcar ridership was in 1921 or 22. I think that was long before Pohlad was in the picture. They started running buses in 1924, about the same time that they tried to get a public transportation monopoly by buying a controlling share in the taxi company. "Better for the public for one company to provide all public transportation." Visit www.EffectiveTransit.org The Independent Unsubsidized Voice of Citizens for Effective Transit in the Twin Cities (no lrt) * lrt isn't a potato chip, you can stop at just one * Bruce Gaarder Highland Park Saint Paul MN [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _____________________________________________ St. Paul Topics - This Week: Light Rail http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul-topics _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ ------------------------------ _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _____________________________________________ For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 11, Issue 17 ************************************** _____________________________________________ To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
