Hi Maud >Yes, Keith, I really, really do want the design and specifications >for a complete solution that includes an appropriate washing >tank...and also a condenser. I am using the word "solution" in the >marketing sense.
:-) "Marketing sense" is a bit of an oxymoron, IMNSHO. Buy now and save money. Anyway, I hear what you're saying but I'm not persuaded. Could be always wrong, but I doubt you'll be seeing plans and specs and sourcing for a washing tank at JtF. A condenser, sure, that's a different matter. >The FuelMeister may be both a poor fuel processor and a poor consumer >value, but in an unemotional marketplace it is simply filling a void >for a complete solution that requires no mechanical or design skills, >scavenging, or sourcing to acquire and set up. In this country there >are many people of conscience who could be attracted to processing >their own biodiesel. If some percentage of those people purchase the >FuelMeister out of ignorance and subsequently damage their vehicles >with its poor quality results, how will that affect the biofuel >movement in this country? Maybe a bit like something I sometimes tell people about composting. With a growing conscience and awareness of the size of the footprint they trample onto the face of the planet, people start thinking about their share of the waste stream, the 3-R's (Reduce, Recycle, Reuse), about what their consumer dollar supports (all the devastations of agribusiness for one thing) and also the effects on their health, etc and so on, and decide a good place to start is to dig up some backyard, make a compost pile and grow some good organic veggies. Indeed, a very good place to start. They'll go to a lot of trouble learning how, building a box, assembling the materials they need, but if they follow a lot of the advice that's floating round on the Net and elsewhere they'll make it too wet. It'll go anaerobic and turn into a soggy, putrefying, stinking, unredeemable mess, possibly fraught with maggots - their good intentions to lessen their contribution to the waste stream have ended with a whole new waste disposal problem they don't know how to deal with. And that's most likely that: "I tried that, it didn't work." If they hadn't made it too wet and it had worked, who knows what they might have gone on to achieve? So I think that when you're dealing with the dreams, visions, aspirations of people of growing conscience and awareness there's no room for opportunistic junk like the Fuelmeister, marketing "solutions" or not. >You're right about extreme thinking. It's not about either you buy a >lousy FuelMeister OR you spend a lot of time doing research, piece >together a custom designed processor out of scavenged parts, and >spend time tweaking it until you get it right. I'm not recommending >that you abandon the approach you are using on JtoF, :-) That's good - 8,000 people or so have visited the processor pages this month so far, a good many of them will have found what they were looking for. >I'm suggesting >it makes sense to explore a supplement: in addition to the library of >examples you currently offer, provide plans, specs, and sources for a >series of generic D-I-Y (do-it-yourself) processors. Good plans are there to be had, some specs are there, more plans are coming with full specs, but I don't believe you're thinking clearly. Sources? You see Chris Tan, in the Philippines, having problems sourcing a mere bubbler? We have a Biofuels Supplies page, very popular, lots of good kit there, but despite the wonders of the global Internet and e-commerce, if you're buying internationally you're immediately at a huge disadvantage. Locally based lists and sites and groups might be able to deal with sourcing effectively, their job, not ours. And in fact JtF is quite clear about being much more interested in the Philippines than in the US or any of the OECD countries, that's our focus, 3rd World countries. These countries are at another disadvantage - OECD countries aren't only much richer, they have much better junk, all this stuff is so much easier to do there. In poor countries stuff gets used and reused until it's entirely dead, not just thrown away because hey, there's a new model out, or it got scratched or we didn't like the colour, there for the taking. OECD people are so spoiled already, why would we pander to an assumed helplessness on top of that? >The spectrum of processor possibilities in the marketplace What marketplace? You're suggesting I take on a whole big time-consuming job which I consider superfluous anyway and would definitely mean other useful and non-superfluous work not being done, for what reward, exactly? This isn't a marketplace, we don't have customers, nobody pays us for our work, that's not why we do it, and we don't owe anything to anybody. And please consider this: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/26401/ That's not you, is it? I'm sure you have only two. >could then include: >- Customized D-I-Y designs > - Select an approximate design for each component or sub-system > - Customize each design to accommodate locally available parts > - Acquire the parts (scavenge most at a variety of sources) > - Assemble the processor >- Standard D-I-Y designs for a complete solution > - Select the appropriate set of plans > - Acquire the parts (scavenge some or purchase most at a >variety of sources) > - Assemble the processor >- Packaged D-I-Y kits for a complete solution (the FuelMeister and others) > - Acquire all the parts you need at once with a single purchase > - Assemble it > >If some of us could work together to provide the Standard D-I-Y, >everybody would be happy. As far as I'm concerned, #s 1 and 2 are already there, and always more on the way, not interested in #3 except maybe to help eradicate them. >As you point out, it's about empowerment. >For some people, empowerment is about controlling the whole thing: >the mechanics, the chemistry, and the results. For those people, a >library of designs that accommodate local needs and parts >availability is ideal. > >For other people, empowerment is focused on the result...the ability, >in a society where it is challenging to do without one, to drive a >car that doesn't consume fossil fuel or contribute to wars of >aggression. So just buy biodiesel from a corporation then. Only that doesn't work out very well - no guarantee of quality it seems, and it's probably based on Big Soy, industrialised monocropping, GMOs, very heavy fossil-fuel inputs, and finally the insanity of using lots of fuel to transport fuel long and unnecessary distances to where it should be made locally anyway. As I said, that's what has to change, and change is never easy, and seldom catered for by market solutions. >For these people and me (I also have a sincere desire to >remake my life to be compatible with the sustainability described in >the Earth Charter [http://www.earthcharter.org]), a choice of D-I-Y >solutions sized by output capacity is ideal. And it would help to >prevent people from making the mistake of purchasing a packaged >solution that produces poor results. > >My professional expertise is in instructional design...figuring out >how to teach people how to do things they don't know how to do and, >in some cases, don't want to do. I am seriously offering my services >to help develop the documentation to support the Middle Way >solutions. The end-user population that would be interested in the >Tiny Tot Easy-Fuel, Junior Easy-Fuel, or Senior Easy-Fuel solutions >will need accompanying set-up and processing instructions. Well, sorry, I can't see it, and I think it's you that's not seeing it. What you're after is already there, IMO - it's all scaleable and adaptible, and there are good reasons for not squashing it into some prejudged three-sizes-fit-all scheme that probably won't. That's what the ready-mades do - bend the process all out of shape so it fits the process design that in turn fits not user-needs or market-needs but the processor maker's bottom-line fantasies. Specifying everything and sourcing it all in terms of the perceived "average" user's perceived ideal needs would close off more possibilities than it would open up, IMO. Nonetheless, if you come up with Middle Way solutions that fit our criteria I'd be more than happy to give them space at JtF's processor section. >Finally, I sincerely thank you, Keith, for giving so much attention >to what I ask and what I say. There's literally no one else in the >world who bothers to pay that much attention to me. Really? Why not? More fool them. >When I come to >Japan two years from now, I hope to meet you and thank you in person >for the important work you do. Thankyou Maud, wouldn't that be grand? Only we'll be long gone by then, or so I devoutly hope, if all goes well we'll be in Baluchistan or something. Have you been here before? I'm sure you'll really like it, if not. Anyway, I must say I agree with Todd. Make some test batches in your kitchen then see how you feel about it. Start here: "Where do I start?" http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start And just keep going. You know about form and function. Regards Keith >Maud >St. Louis, Missouri > > >Yes, Maud, but do you really, really seriously, require a design and > >specifications for a washing tank??? > > > > From your previous: > > > >>it needs an associated washing system. Could Mark's > >>posting of Sean Davis' stand-pipe system be an appropriate companion > > >for the $150 Fumeless? > >> > >>http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=332&view=pr > >>evious&sid=a09397e0e325291fa2943e830a4151a0 > >> > >>Or should it be even simpler? > > > >The main point about the stand-pipe tank is the stand-pipe, which can > >be comprehended at a glance. Neat and useful, but hardly obligatory > >(we use such a standpipe in the WVO tank to separate the crud, though > >actually we don't get any crud these days, good sources). Why would > >anyone need plans for a wash-tank? Good resources on technique, sure, > >why's and wherefore's, do's and don't's, that's all readily to hand, > >but a tank? Anything will do. Our first wash-tank was a plastic > >garbage bin. We softened a bit of the bottom near the edge with a > >lighter, cut a hole in it with a cutting knife, melted the edges a > >bit more and set a valve into the hole then let the plastic cool and > >set round the valve, secured it with epoxy putty, covered the putty > >with silicon, then wired the bin firmly on top of a defunct > >steel-pipe four-legged stool with the seat missing, just high enough > >to get a 20-litre pail under the valve, bent two of the legs slightly > >so it inclines forward towards the drain, and taped an aquarium pump > >to the lid. It worked perfectly well. We're still using it as a > >glyc-settling tank. > > > >>For neophytes you would have to specify how to integrate the > >>two...some kind of plumbing and pump to move the fuel from one to the > >>other. > > > >Or just drain and fill with 20-litre oil cans until you figure out > >something better. Four bucketsful once a month, in your case? > > > >>Now, to provide a complete solution that can compete with the > >>Fuelmeister, > > > >I think the Fuelmeister is an object of derision, not any sort of > >standard which has to be bettered. Any and all processors at our site > >do that in every way but one - they're not ready-mades. > > > >You can, if you like, pay US$150,000-450,000 for a more sophisticated > >piece of junk than the Fuelmeister that has just that kind of > >approach in mind - like a washing-machine, just pour some stuff in > >the top, flip some switches and go shopping while it does everything > >for you, very convenient. These are the "processors" you find here in > >Japan. Well, they're what's sold here by a few companies, you'd have > >to look quite hard to actually find one, and even harder to find one > >that's actually being used. Couple of problems with them though... > >One is that they make sub-spec fuel - I have some of it here, murky > >stuff that'll never settle clear, poor conversion, very inadequately > >washed, and they only make 100 litres a day max. (20 gallons), and > >that only from virgin oil or the very best quality WVO, maybe the top > >5% of the WVO stream. This is another: > > > >>list, and sources). And we must also find ways to make processing > >>biodiesel as simple and mindless as it is to do a load of laundry. > >>Only then will more of the very people who squander the majority of > >>the world's natural resources (yes, my compatriots) will feel able > >>and willing to process their own biodiesel and use it as their > >>primary fuel. > > > >Up to now biodiesel has been exactly nowhere in Japan. Only now is it > >slowly starting to emerge from the dark, and that's in spite of these > >processor companies, not because of them - it's apparently partly or > >largely because of us, the JtF approach to it, NOT the "laundry" > >approach. Mainly because of our Japanese website (lots of visitors!), > >the Japanese Biofuel mailing list, and the seminars we run every > >month (which bring people from all over Japan). Now people are making > >their own biodiesel, and the main message they're getting is that > >it's the process that matters, NOT the processor, and the process is > >free. That we can and do make high-quality fuel with processors that > >cost exactly nothing, and that we're NOT technicians of any kind, is > >exactly what seems to count most in encouraging people to try it > >themselves. > > > >This is the essential step - it has to do with empowerment (some say > >the revelation that you can make your own fuel is at least as > >important as making it), not just consumerism. IMO this is the only > >way that a critical threshold-level of awareness and demand can be > >created for the quite profound changes required to have a chance of > >taking place - and that's NOT just replacing fossil-fuel use with > >biofuel use. With those changes, sustainable biofuels use - > >sustainable energy use generally - becomes generally available at the > >consumer level. It's happening, rather fast I think. > > > >Another previous message of yours: > > > >>That's just the problem...it's not that there's not enough > >>information, it's that there's too much! > > > >Too much information? What could that mean? There ain't no > >one-size-fits-all, people's circumstances and needs differ. Now if > >the information available covers a range of choices (it does), is > >reliable (it is), and isn't contradictory (it isn't), then "too much > >information" can only mean you're looking for a different *kind* of > >information. > > > >>That's why a solution would be so nice...one well-designed choice > >>that's proven and predictable. After building confidence through > >>experience, scaling up or developing a more customized or complex > >>processor will undoubtedly seem like a piece o' cake. > > > >Or a loaf of bread or a dish of tofu. (Yes, I also make those things > >from scratch, which has included growing the wheat and the soybeans, > >also from scratch, and nobody had to teach me farming either, nor > >cooking.) Maud, there's a whole world between the two extremes of > >having to be a rocket scientist and just flipping a switch, "simple > >and mindless", and that's where biodiesel is at now. You could buy it > >from a Big Soy producer or you could buy a Fuelmeister, but it seems > >neither will guarantee you good fuel, and neither will change > >anything. And if you don't want to change anything, then why use > >biodiesel? Changing things is never easy. Yet making biodiesel IS > >easy. So is making a processor. > > > >Best > > > >Keith > > > > > >>Among other things, I can make bread and tofu from scratch. In fact, > >>tomorrow morning I'm going to bake special rolls for the American > >>holiday Thanksgiving. > >> > >>Fortunately, before I start baking tomorrow morning I don't have to > >>figure out how to design a Yeasted Roll Processor that will later > >>scale up to a Loaf of Bread Processor. I don't have to research > >>sources of the flour and yeast I need, nor pay hazmat charges for > >>shipping these raw ingredients, nor fake an industrial address > >>because they can't be shipped to a residence. I can store my > >>ingredients and my Yeasted Roll Processor safely in my home rather > >>than in a locked outbuilding. And when I pull my rolls out of the > >>Yeasted Roll Processor, I will be able to inhale the fumes both > >>safely and with pleasure. > >> > >>Before I leave the house tomorrow to take my freshly baked rolls over > >>to my family dinner, I will probably start another chemical process > >>before I go...and let it proceed unmonitored! Yes, I will toss a load > >>in the Laundry Processor, measure in the chemicals without bothering > >>to get out my triple beam balance, and start it up as I leave the > >>house. By the time I get home my clothes will have been washed, > >>rinsed, and wrung out. And I won't have to distill the alcohol out of > >>the rinse water or find a sustainable way to dispose of an unwanted > >>byproduct. > >> > >>Just like baking bread and making tofu, processing biodiesel is easy > >>and fun for some. But that doesn't mean that it isn't alien, > >>complicated, and intimidating to others. > >> > >>Until the day arrives that we can go to any appliance store to > >>purchase the Biodiesel Processor that meets our family's needs, we > >>must work together to figure out how to make it as easy as possible > >>to build a one that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine in > >>a matter of hours (which means providing a standard design, parts > >>list, and sources). And we must also find ways to make processing > >>biodiesel as simple and mindless as it is to do a load of laundry. > >>Only then will more of the very people who squander the majority of > >>the world's natural resources (yes, my compatriots) will feel able > >>and willing to process their own biodiesel and use it as their > >>primary fuel. > >> > >>Maud > >>St. Louis, Missouri > >> > >> > >>Quinn said: > >><snip> > >> > >> > >No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist. But I >bet it would > > > >>help. ; ) > >> > >>Keith said: > >> > >> >I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely > >> >superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate > >> >Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would > >> >it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a > >> >simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum > >> >or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you > >> >happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more > >> >complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a > >> >techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the > >><snip> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. 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