Todd, FTR, I have read thru all the posts. And responses. And I have spent way too much time in my life arguing with my-way-or-the-highway boys like you. Your condescending sarcasm is there for all to see, even in the second line of your last post, below.
We disagree as to the needs and future progress of the alternative fuels movement. My thoughts are stated in previous posts, succinctly, I might add. And thank you for that observation, I aim for succinctness. [Search Results for "succinct"-- 1) maxim. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. ...A succinct formulation of a fundamental principle, general truth, or rule of conduct. See synonyms at saying. Middle English maxime, from Old French, from Medieval... 2) succinct. The American Heritage¨ Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. ...sucácinctáest1. Characterized by clear, precise expression in few words; ] So, flame away if you simply can't contain yourself, I am through with this topic and will not be engaging with you further. Quinn BTW, Keith, just below Todd states: "Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread making or weekend laundry." Exactly what Maud and I have been saying all along. ----- Original Message ----- From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine Quinn, Please read the entirety of the posts and responses Quinn. Not simply those one-sided snippits that fit the pounding of your heart at a given moment. While I have no bone to pick with either Maud or you, the tone of her tomes have been rather succinct, whether intended as tongue in cheek or not. And you're following suit. Push button convenience. Clothes-washer safe and reliable. Thought free. Foolproof. And then assemble it all and give it to the masses...Yippee! What ever happened to the end user having a clue clue as to what to do with it, what they're actually getting into and whether they're going to stick with it or not? "Build a production run of retail reactors/systems and they will come, eh?" Dabbling with methanol, lye and heat sources isn't exactly the same as bread making or weekend laundry. And buying a top-'o-the-line micro-processor is no more going to make someone a capable biodieseler than dropping $10,000 on a carbon fibre bicycle is going to make someone a bicyclist of olympic calibre. Everything starts with the person, not the device. And everything from start to finish is dependant upon the person, not the device - bicycle or processor, it doesn't matter. All that is going to happen as a result of making "processors in a box" available to the masses - whether they be lacklustre or cradle-to-grave units - is a lot of collective waste, in time, in money and perhaps even lives and property. It's not the availability of "processors in a box," much less Mal-Wart priced processors that is going to solve the collective problem either. That's a consumerist mentality. "If I only had this I could do so much more." What solves problems is individual drive and determination, coupled with available resources. Well, the resources are all there. There's hardly a part in the world that cannot be had by an enthusiastic and/or dedicated biodieseler. And the drawings, blueprints and parts lists have been, are and will be available for those dance-class dads and soccer moms who have both the drive and the ideal to match. For those who don't know if they've got either or both, let them review the best information that's available and then work with someone to pull the ideal off if they still think it's a worthwhile venture. But buying or making available over-priced and/or half-baked units is not the answer. The answer is to provide the information and let the individual not only save several thousand dollars (Their child's inheritance? A new sand and gravel mine and used front end loader for the creek, compost heap and earth plaster gathering? Maybe three used Jettas and the ability to send three gas guzzlers to the crusher?), but become knowledgeable about the process and the processor that is going to take them there. That knowledge alone is going to be immeasurable in value when the first button is pushed, perhaps more than anyone could ever imagine. Time is as much money as money is time, with time often being of greater abundance than money. As for what you presume that I "don't understand," much less your misperceptions as to where my disdain lays? What I understand is that the entire world is struggling in some way shape or form to put bread on their plates, keep roofs over their heads and keep the mortgage company, landlord or warlord's foot out of the small of their backs. But I'm to be bitched at because I don't eagerly hasten to help put some inevitably, mindlessly-foolish and naive people at some financial or physical peril, or perhaps in an early grave, all for the sake of a little more Saran-Wrap/push-button convenience? No thank you. Humans are perfectly capable of achieving that lot without my help. And ordinarily this would be just about the spot where someone tells someone else not simply to "back off," but to get the hell off, at least until he or she understood just how simple it is to make biodiesel responsibly, whether it be on the intentional community scale or personal, and just how criminal it is to expect others to lay the gold carpet under their feet so they don't have to conduct the first thought themselves. But then wouldn't you be altogether familiar with such a thought process if you're already in the midst of those things "alternative?" Todd Swearingen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quinn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine > Back off, Todd. Your "break a nail/Virginia Slims" references are starting > to sound quite misogynistic. > > Maud sounds like a real go-getter to me. And I would put myself in that > category also. Neither of us (see previous posts) are afraid of "putting on > our dungarees and getting dirty", not in the least. > > What you don't seem to understand is that there are those out there who have > *other* interests also. I belong to another list where people are > researching alternative building-- exploring materials, constructing > experimental walls/ shelters/ flooring, experimenting with roofing and > insulation all using inexpensive, renewable materials. This is work that I > would consider of equal importance to the environment and our lives as > alternative fuels. > > And yet not many of those people are *also* making their own fuel (though > some of them might someday). Why? Because it takes all their time and > energy to build and research and learn and teach alternative construction. > > Certainly those are people who would readily embrace alternative uels -and > I doubt they're wearing chinos- but their time is already spent researching > and salvaging and experimenting with something else. > > It is a simple fact of life that we can't, each of us individually, grow the > wheat to make the bread AND grow the soy to turn into fuel AND quarry the > stone to build the house AND bake the bread AND process the soy into fuel > AND actually build the house AND do it all with the depth of knowledge it > would take to continue to refine the processes to be ever more efficient. > Did I mention solar panels, wind turbines, waste management? > > What about someone who wanted to live environmentally sustainably but > preferred to spend their time becoming proficient at the guitar or some such > frivolousness, heaven forbid? What about artists, singers, gymnasts? > > Does someone had to dig the ore, refine the metal, create the alloy, mold > the parts, engineer and build the wind turbine to save energy and do it > *all* themselves before they can not be considered a mindless push-button > chino-wearer in your eyes? > > The simple fact is that Maud is right. The majority of people around the > world are never going to each make their own biofuel unless it becomes as > easy as doing laundry in a home washer/ dryer set up. Even creating > community based canola-to-biodiesel operations in the US (that's United > States, Keith) alone would require people who were thinking of things other > than catalysts and converters- like remaking the entire paradigm of trade > and redefining community. Thank goodness there are people who *are* > spending their time thinking of these things. > > In the meantime, there would be more of us shade-tree fuel makers if there > were a set of plans, yes, down to the nuts & bolts. And I see that, in > fact, that is happening on the list. And that is good. > > Never-owned-a-Cuisinart, don't-even-use-a-coffeemaker- Quinn > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Appal Energy > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 11:35 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine > > > You know Maud, > > There is a difference between claiming to be able to make bread from > scratch > and then going to the kitchen and using your Champion bread processor. > 'Bout > like someone claiming to brew their own beer but using a "kit-in-a-can" > instead of whole grain. > > "There are those that do," and then "there are those that don't." And > everyone knows precisely why people "don't." > > What you're promoting is a philosophy of the impossible, which will > apparently make you happy but not until. > > This is the processor that you're describing: "Make it so I don't have to > think. Give me a 10 year, 10,000 gallon warranty. Guarantee UL testing and > then make sure you're liabiility insurance is up to date so that when I > choose to not think, crack a nail or light my Virginia Slim in the > presence > of an open (albeit colorfully wrapped in decorative warning colors, > conveniently sized and over-packaged) 32 ounce bottle of methanol, I can > sue > your ass off!" > > Build a processor that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine? In a > few hours no less? In case you didn't notice, that's where things are > heading. Although it's rather doubtful that the assembly line will be as > large as a Whirlpool factory in an exploited and impoverished "free trade" > region. Even then, there remains one minor gap in your suggestion. Someone > still has to put the dungarees on and get dirty collecting the grease. I > know (splutter, fuss!) that's not automatic! > > Okay already. Maybe you can pick up a ratchet and change your crankcase > oil > faster than a terrier can pull a trailing hambone off an ox cart. But > you'll > never be able to put your processor in the cubby hole next to your > breadmaker so that you can "inhale the fumes...safely." Reality is that it > will always be more Feng Shui lined up beside your lawnmower and > wheelbarrow > than your Cuisinart. > > In all do seriousness? (Which I thought I was already.) If it's > push-button > convenience that you're looking for, you'll probably need to switch > channels > to the QVC home shopping network, where beyond any doubt whatsoever > someone > will eventually try and pawn off a "no brains, no batteries required" > processor. "It slices. It dices. And this Ronco/Ginsu biodiesel processor > can be yours for the remarkable price of 9,999 dollars and 99 cents." > (Oil, > alcohol, catalysts, freight and liability insurance not included, of > course.) > > (Oh damn! People already thought of that and are selling half-arsed and > incomplete processors on the internet for quadruple what they're worth.) > > The information is out there Maud. Much of it you've already seen. The > only > thing that is required of you in order to get that information to solidify > is to make a gallon or two of fuel on your kitchen counter top (right next > to your breadmaker if you like) and get familiar with the mechanics of > making and washing. > > From there, anyone who can figure out not to mix their whites with their > darks in a push-button laundry world can build a cradle to grave processor > that prevents them from smelling all those fumes, no matter how badly they > may want to. > > Todd Swearingen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Maud Essen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 9:43 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] BD as Lube oil for two stroke gasoline engine > > > > Among other things, I can make bread and tofu from scratch. In fact, > > tomorrow morning I'm going to bake special rolls for the American > > holiday Thanksgiving. > > > > Fortunately, before I start baking tomorrow morning I don't have to > > figure out how to design a Yeasted Roll Processor that will later > > scale up to a Loaf of Bread Processor. I don't have to research > > sources of the flour and yeast I need, nor pay hazmat charges for > > shipping these raw ingredients, nor fake an industrial address > > because they can't be shipped to a residence. I can store my > > ingredients and my Yeasted Roll Processor safely in my home rather > > than in a locked outbuilding. And when I pull my rolls out of the > > Yeasted Roll Processor, I will be able to inhale the fumes both > > safely and with pleasure. > > > > Before I leave the house tomorrow to take my freshly baked rolls over > > to my family dinner, I will probably start another chemical process > > before I go...and let it proceed unmonitored! Yes, I will toss a load > > in the Laundry Processor, measure in the chemicals without bothering > > to get out my triple beam balance, and start it up as I leave the > > house. By the time I get home my clothes will have been washed, > > rinsed, and wrung out. And I won't have to distill the alcohol out of > > the rinse water or find a sustainable way to dispose of an unwanted > > byproduct. > > > > Just like baking bread and making tofu, processing biodiesel is easy > > and fun for some. But that doesn't mean that it isn't alien, > > complicated, and intimidating to others. > > > > Until the day arrives that we can go to any appliance store to > > purchase the Biodiesel Processor that meets our family's needs, we > > must work together to figure out how to make it as easy as possible > > to build a one that is as safe and efficient as a washing machine in > > a matter of hours (which means providing a standard design, parts > > list, and sources). And we must also find ways to make processing > > biodiesel as simple and mindless as it is to do a load of laundry. > > Only then will more of the very people who squander the majority of > > the world's natural resources (yes, my compatriots) will feel able > > and willing to process their own biodiesel and use it as their > > primary fuel. > > > > Maud > > St. Louis, Missouri > > > > > > Quinn said: > > <snip> > > > > > >No, Keith, you don't have to be a rocket scientist. But I bet it > would > > >>help. ; ) > > > > Keith said: > > > > >I bet it wouldn't. More likely it'd be largely or entirely > > >superfluous, perhaps even a hindrance - this is Appropriate > > >Technology stuff, KISS, which rocket science isn't too good at. Would > > >it help a whole lot in figuring how to clean up the wash-water in a > > >simple greywater system? Or rigging a washing tank from a 55-gal drum > > >or a plastic garbage bucket or defunct washing machine whatever you > > >happen to find lying about the place? This stuff isn't much more > > >complicated than baking bread, if any. I'm a journalist, not a > > >techie, I don't have any technical training of any kind, I think the > > <snip> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! 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