As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools. On the other insert jsp,jstl etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with keyboard happy designers who love to "tweak" their designs etc.
Felipe Schnack wrote:
XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
calls.
On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
that making the page script free is a good step, however "programming" with
XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
in and things like whether <c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/> does a deep
copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
XMLC over JSP.
That's just my opinion though.
-----Original Message--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in "JSTL In
Action"),
you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
(or whatever
tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
JSP pages unless the first line reads
<%@ taglib prefix="scriptfree" uri="/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld" %>
Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
the String
Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
in creating
custom tags yourself at all.
I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
don't want
to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
need a good
documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
Best regards,
Eric
-----Original Message-----(http://www.enhydra.org/).
From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
only if the
project has some very strict guidelines and very good
documentation on those
guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
the guidelines to
be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
restrictions
should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
have a complete
understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
think would be a
lot of work.
Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
write code
to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
-----Original Message--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
To: Tag Libraries Users List
Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
Greetings,
As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point
of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
delgating developing using taglibs.
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