But your designers can handle EL when they need to?
  And I never say any problems with WYSIWYG tools like Dreamweaver...
and design teams I worked with used it... maybe we do simpler things,
but it worked...

On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 17:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hello-
> 
> Forgive my comments as they are not technical.  Just observations I have made on a 
>few projects over the past couple months.
> 
> Since there are very few java programmers who are designers, and vice versa - there 
>must be a comfortable zone where designers/developers can integrate their works 
>without battles.  I have found that there is little place for a WYSIWYG design team 
>outside of prototyping, this becomes even more evident as applications evolve.  In a 
>recent project we migrated JSP 1.1 code and old ratty HTML code to jsp1.2/struts, 
>with XHTML and CSS-P on the client side.  I have found that having good designers 
>that write good XHTML code and use CSS have the foundation to understand the MVC 
>approach - After all they are doing the same thing with the style and layout that 
>java developers try to do with the model, view and controller.
> 
> All the java developers I work with understand the view layer, and all the designers 
>understand how the model and controller fits into their design.  I think XHTML helps 
>out a lot. And I have seen it.  I sit on both sides of the fence; I do some view 
>design but mostly backend.  Some days I am in Jdeveloper some days I am in 
>dreamweaver validating XHTML pages.  I have a lot of people like me on my team and it 
>just works.  
> 
> If you are stuck with crummy designers that don't get the backend at all, giving 
>them a set of tags to use won't help the situation.  Educating them will.  If they 
>don't want to learn, send them back to the marketing department to work on the new 
>web designers business cards.  Just because their designers doesn't mean they 
>shouldn't understand the backend, and vice versa.  
> 
> Sorry for the long message.
> 
> -chris
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
> To: Tag Libraries Users List
> Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> 
> Greetings,
>                 As a software developer I would like to delegate some of 
> the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers, 
> programmers etc.  The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl 
> was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non 
> java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like 
> jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of 
> wyswig web designers and other non java programmers.  What is the point 
> of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the 
> developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags 
> to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers. 
> All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience 
> delgating developing using taglibs.
> 
> 
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-- 

Felipe Schnack
Analista de Sistemas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cel.: (51)91287530
Linux Counter #281893

Centro Universit�rio Ritter dos Reis
http://www.ritterdosreis.br
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fone/Fax.: (51)32303341


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