> As a developer I can tell you I dislike having to open up designers
> html especialy those who use WYSWIG tools.
Maybe you should use a WYSIWYG tool too :-)
>On the other insert jsp,jstl
> etc into html and send it back to designers leads to problems with
> keyboard happy designers who love to "tweak" their designs etc.
This is a matter of training...
> Felipe Schnack wrote:
>
> > XMLC seems nice, but what about performance? XML transformation
> >probably is costly, compared to taglib use, isn't it?
> > Anyway, I see no problems about designers do their design with no
> >dynamic content, and then send the HTML files to developers add tag
> >calls.
> >
> >On Tue, 2003-02-04 at 16:24, Jerome Jacobsen wrote:
> >
> >
> >>What does Javadoc document? Java. I think it is too much to ask most page
> >>designers to understand JavaBeans which means understanding Java types
> >>(primitive, wrappers, Collections, Maps). And then they'd need to
> >>understand this Expression Language and its type conversion/coercion rules.
> >>Not to mention understanding JSP/servlet scopes and visibility. I agree
> >>that making the page script free is a good step, however "programming" with
> >>XML syntax tags as opposed to scripts is still programming. To a degree
> >>they still need to understand the run-time context that they are programming
> >>in and things like whether <c:set var='beanA' value='${beanB}'/> does a deep
> >>copy of beanB or just creates a reference.
> >>
> >>With XMLC you separate the skill sets better. The programmer doesn't need
> >>to know the view. The programmer takes the DOM and looks for XHTML IDs and
> >>replaces/adds dynamic content to these nodes depending on the ID. I really
> >>don't know much more about it than that as I've never used it. However if I
> >>were to start a project where there was a requirement that non-programmer
> >>page designers design the pages I would definitely look into something like
> >>XMLC over JSP.
> >>
> >>That's just my opinion though.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>>Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 12:01 PM
> >>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I disagree... By using a scriptfree TLD (as described in "JSTL In
> >>>Action"),
> >>>you can very well restrict your web designers to use only JSTL
> >>>(or whatever
> >>>tags you want them to use). Our web designers aren't allow to publish any
> >>>JSP pages unless the first line reads
> >>><%@ taglib prefix="scriptfree" uri="/WEB-INF/scriptfree.tld" %>
> >>>
> >>>Also, we haven't used anything but JSTL up to now (ok, except for
> >>>the String
> >>>Tag Library, which is handy...). Frankly, I don't see the point
> >>>in creating
> >>>custom tags yourself at all.
> >>>
> >>>I don't know Enhydra, but from what you write, I as a programmer
> >>>don't want
> >>>to have anything to do with the View part of MVC. I give the web designers
> >>>the objects, and the rest is their work :-) But of course they
> >>>need a good
> >>>documentation (Javadoc in our case) of the objects which they can use.
> >>>
> >>>Best regards,
> >>>Eric
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Jerome Jacobsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>>>Sent: Dienstag, 4. Februar 2003 17:47
> >>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
> >>>>Subject: RE: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>JSTL or not, I'd say that non-Java programmers can write JSPs
> >>>>only if the
> >>>>project has some very strict guidelines and very good
> >>>>documentation on those
> >>>>guidelines and your custom tags. You would have to design
> >>>>the guidelines to
> >>>>be very restrictive of what tags you allow in the JSP. These
> >>>>restrictions
> >>>>should be designed so that the JSP writer does not need to
> >>>>have a complete
> >>>>understanding of how JSPs work. Setting up all of this I
> >>>>think would be a
> >>>>lot of work.
> >>>>
> >>>>Instead I'd recommend something like Enhydra/XMLC
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>(http://www.enhydra.org/).
> >>>In this framework the page writers write HTML. Java programmers
> >>>write code
> >>>to insert the dynamic content into a DOM version of the HTML.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Lyndon Durham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>>>Sent: Monday, February 03, 2003 3:55 PM
> >>>>To: Tag Libraries Users List
> >>>>Subject: Non Java Developers, programmers using JSTL and taglibs
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Greetings,
> >>>> As a software developer I would like to delegate some of
> >>>>the more mundane and simpler development tasks to non developers,
> >>>>programmers etc. The JSTL specification document claims that the jstl
> >>>>was created to facilitate or ease development for web designers and non
> >>>>java programmers. It is my experience that jstl and other taglibs like
> >>>>jakarta standard taglibs are still rather convulted for the likes of
> >>>>wyswig web designers and other non java programmers. What is the point
> >>>>of developing applications that make succint use of jstl if as the
> >>>>developer I still have to spend myraid hours explaining how to use tags
> >>>>to the less initated or persons who are not programmers or developers.
> >>>>All comments are appreciated or anyone whose had a better experience
> >>>>delgating developing using taglibs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>
> >>
>
>
>
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--
Felipe Schnack
Analista de Sistemas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cel.: (51)91287530
Linux Counter #281893
Centro Universit�rio Ritter dos Reis
http://www.ritterdosreis.br
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