Get real that wouldn't be able to be done! They couldn't afford to pay staff!
-----Original Message----- From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy via Talk Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 7:33 AM To: Window-Eyes Discussion List Cc: Josh Kennedy Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? But for those who cannot afford Jaws they are left out. That is why FS should make a low cost jaws rental program for maybe the price of a netflix subscription, and the more you pay then you can add friends onto your jaws account and let close friends use jaws, like I let one or two other family members use my netflix account. On 9/11/2017 7:53 PM, David Moore via Talk wrote: > Hi all! > I am starting to say this to everyone. > You must use more than one screen reader to access everything. I could tell > you many examples of when NVDA accesses things and JAWS does not at all. > On the other hand, I could give you many examples of when JAWS accesses what > I need, and NVDA does not. Narrator is no slouch in Windows 10. I use > Narrator in many of Windows 10 universal apps. > I watch TV on a web site, where I need NVDA. > JAWS cannot access that site at all. > On my mobile Facebook page, JAWS does a much better job than NVDA. > So, here is my recommendation: > You need to be very fluent in JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator, and you will be able > to access almost everything that a sighted person does. > With JAWS, you must be comfortable with using the touch cursor, because it > memics swiping and tapping the screen with the keyboard. That is what you > need to use many of the Windows 10 universal apps. > NVDA, has the great option of being able to route the mouse pointer right to > where the focus is. JAWS has no command to do that. Routing the JAWS cursor > to the PC cursor works for me, about 10 percent of the time. NVDA is much > different, because you can move the pointer with your mouse, and route the > pointer right to where you are at on any object. NVDA allows you to route the > mouse pointer to where you are, and then you can do a click with your mouse. > That is the only way I can interact with many controls on media pages and the > like. > Please let me know what I can do for you, because I have many tutorials on > using NVDA, and JAWS with Windows 10. > You need to use three browsers as well. > Chrome is the best, then Firefox, and IE 11, should be your very last choice, > because it is very insecure. IE 11, should only be used if it is an emergency! > Have a great one! > David Moore > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: David via Talk > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:29 PM > To: [email protected]; Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: David > Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? > > Could be a number of reasons, why the one screen reader works better > than the other, in a given situation. And without knowing more than > anyone else, it might all be guessing, should we claim to know the reasons. > > For one thing, the commercial screen readers, are being developed by > ingeneers who are on some kind of payment. The longer they take, the > more a certain feature development costs. In reality, this will mean > that unless we want to fork out a thousand dollar extra for the next > update to the screen reader, they have to somehow limit how much time > they invest in one particular area of the development. > NVDA, being a more or less volunteer product, will not have this > economic barrier, hence the developers can take the time they need, to > have the feature in place properly. > > Next, any developer is only a human. We all tend to do things a > certain way, and sometimes might not have the full expertise in > understanding other ways to perform the same task. Most ingeneers are > stationed in an Office, at a fixed location. They only have access to > what the company lets them have access to, when comes to third-party > software, Websites and computer material. > NVDA, being an Internationally decentralized project, with several > developers spread out across boarders and facilities, will have access > to far more examples close to everyday life. Many of the developers > might be blind people, who finds it tricky to handle a certain task. > They can develop their new feature, or (du to the open-sourcing,) > modify an existing one. And, they can do so DIRECTLY on the very > website, machine or software, posing the problem. They don't have to > write any hour-list, hoping for their boss to pay them at the end of the > month. > > Since the ingeneers of the commercial products are under influence by > a company that often tends to stick to the 'yesterdays', and have to > base all their programming on the reasoning and coding of two or more > decades ago, they might not have the full flexibility of today's > programming tools. They might also suffer from a lite version of > professional pride, which sometimes can prevent them from seeing > possibilities. Even GW had such issues. At least a couple of cases, we > were clear-cut told from the developing team, that a certain feature > was not possible. In one case, they straight forward claimed that > "Windows will not allow us to do this." > a few days later, a volunteer posted a new app, on App Central, that > performed the very task. Strange that "Windows would not let the > ingeneers of GW do the task", but an app - using their very screen > reader, which clearly is based on Windows - can handle the very job... > :( > > In NVDA, such a case might not really be thinkable. If someone thinks > the task can be carried out, and they have the necessary programming > skills, they can simply go in and modify the very core of NVDA, being > open-sourced. Or, they could write a powerful add-on, which really > digs deep into the functionality of the main screen reader. > > Talking about digging into the parenting screen reader, there we as > app developers often run into issues. It has been told me, though I > have not yet attempted any scripting under Jaws, that Jaws Scripting > is by far limited in possibilities, compared to the extensive > capabilities of Window-Eyes App Development. This all has to do with > the amount of access the screen reader manufacturer grants his > scripters. I might well have good ideas how to solve a given task, but > if the screen reader blocks me from performing certain operations, I > am in the basic, out of luck. Once in a while, some smart guy might > find ways to go around the bush, and will be able to surpass the > limitations of the screen reader, but that would be rather exceptional. > > Again, if NVDA, in its very main core, would block a developer from > performing certain tasks, he MIGHT modify the core, and grant himself > the needed access. I do stress the term > MIGHT, > Since it could conflict some of the developing rules for the NVDA > project, and anyone attempting doing so, might do well in clarifying > with the directing board, their right to do such main-core modification. > I am just saying that it is possible. At least, the person with the > right skills, can read the main-core code, and point out to > responsible personel where the trouble nests, and what would be a > proper solution to the matter. With the commercial products, we as > paying customers have no access to the code, and when we are told > things are not possible, we are left to trust that things cannot be > solved. Why other ingeneers, of competing products, can solve the > very same challenge, you can make up your own thoughts. :) > > Then we have the legal stuff. You remember the court-case between FS > and GW? If memory serves, GW had developed something, that somehow, > looked like what Jaws had already in their product. (As a side-note, > other screen readers have a similar feature, but noone sued them). > Sometimes a manufacturer might hold back from developing certain > features, in fear of getting to close to the stuff of the competitor. > NVDA, being a non-commercial, Privat-person project, might not be seen > as a legally threatening product. Even taken to court, it might not be > a valid case, since all the ingeneers ever could own, is the WAY a > task is solved, NOT the SOLUTION itself. > > Might I tell you, that some decades ago, someone "invented" a > technique of lifting sunken ships from the seabed, by use of polystyrene > pearls. > They thought the idea so great, they wanted to patentize the whole > method. Problem was, that Donal Duck had already invented the method, > in a story some years before; hence HE (Donald Duck) was the rightful > owner of the idea. yet, it is told the outcome of the whole story, is > that the company holds the patent of HOW to blow the pearls into the > sunken ship, but has NO rights for the idea of using this method for lifting > ships. > OH, well, even should it all turn out being only a good story, it > still illustrates how complicated legal stuff sometimes can be. And it > further somehow could tell why NVDA might have less to fear, in > 'snapping' good ideas from other products, than what a commercial > product would have to face. > > Summing it all up: > Old-fashioned code making up the base for further development, > Stubborn professionals, Economic intrests, and fear of legal > infringements > - will only be the shell of why one screen reader might perform better > than the other, on a given case. > > might I just hook on to all of this, that there might be cases when > NVDA really WOULD fall short of the commercials. This would be in > cases, when the screen reader's performance depends on access to a > third-party software, and where such access only will be granted, > through a costly and heavily claused contract with the software owner. > Or, in cases when the software manufacturer simply denies anyone else, > but commercially developed projects, any extensive access. Microsoft > wanted to deny access to certain programming features, clearly > blocking screen readers in general out from given parts of the > Windows-based world. They lost their case in the court (about a decade > ago), and was forced to lay open the necessary info for ingeneers to > hook on to part of the OS. This might have boosted the screen reader > industry, and might even have benefitted many other software > developers. But unless NVDA might have the money to sign contracts, > they might be left outside, when it comes to certain access;no matter > how great their ingeneers are. Being an open-sourced product, meaning > that the access they are granted will be readily available to anyone, > might cause certain manufacturer to refuse granting NVDA any real > access to their products. In those cases, only commercial projects, > with loads of money and secretly closed up coding, will be granted the > necessary access to perform well under a given environment. > > > On 9/11/2017 8:38 PM, Marvin Commerford via Talk wrote: > > Hi. What you said makes sense. For me there are things that > actually work better in NVDA than they do in Jaws which surprises me > quite a bit. If you use Thunderbird's message list NVDA does a far > better job than Jaws does. If you delete an unread message from the > list Jaws rereads the information from the message you deleted. I > tried using the Jaws convoluted UI to try to fix this but gave up > after close to an hour. NVDA does not do this and also tells you how > many messages there are in a TB folder. I so far haven't found a web > page in Firefox that works better with Jaws than it does with NVDA. > I'm still hoping for pleasant surprises from Jaws but I'm not holding > my breath. I believe in having a commercial screen reader because > those companies have more resources to keep up with Microsoft. > However, at this time I'd find it hard to recommend the purchase of > Jaws to a friend or student who has limitted financial resources. > > > > On 9/11/2017 2:09 AM, David via Talk wrote: > >> You know, I too am tempted to believe, NVDA will take over some screen > >> reader users. For one thing, as NVDA becomes yet more powerful, and > >> widely known, it might happen that paying authorities or cherities, will > >> refuse to pay hundreds (or in translated version thousands) of dollars > >> for Jaws. And due to the dominance VFO currently has on the asistive > >> market, they can raise the price as they desire. > >> > >> No. NVDA is far from good enough for a professional run, in a work > >> position where effeciency counts. It does come short when comes to > >> certain pieces of software, and it takes some modification and > >> scripting, to have it up running. Jaws is, like it or not, a > >> full-fledged screen reader, in many cases working somehow right out of > >> the box. Sure, I did say somehow. Not even WinEyes did always work right > >> out of the box; or why did we get the app feature of WinEyes, do > you think? > >> > >> But for the general home user, who wants to write and read emails, who > >> has already invested in a scanner and OCR software, and who needs to > >> perform general activities on the net (paying bills, checking the weekly > >> offer of their favorite store, and lookup something on Yahoo or > >> Google)... For those users, I am ready to say NVDA already will be close > >> to good enough. I don't really see too much that Jaws performs, or does > >> better, than NVDA on that front. > >> > >> > >> VFO bought AISquared, and in effect GWMicro. Since the agreement of the > >> merge is not publicly known, we do not know how that all came around, or > >> what was the thought behind. Who initiated and so forth. > >> > >> < IF > >> > >> the intension was to grow bigger, they really managed; for the time > >> being. Was the idea of it all to control the market? Well, somehow maybe > >> they have currently managed. But there is something about being the > >> biggest and only one in town. You also will have to deal with ALL the > >> queries. And, though the world map looks far more International today > >> than two decades ago, many customers are facing ecconomic issues that > >> might affect their chances of buying a wildly priced product. Somehow, > >> we could think this to be some of the consequences of the WEForOffice > >> program, which did open up for even the less bolstered wallet to provide > >> the needy one with a full-fledged screen reader. Now that this program > >> eventually will be obsolete, NVDA might be the choice -even the ONLY > >> choice - for many a private user. Or, they might - if their activity > >> does not rely solely on Windows - leave the whole computer world > >> together, and go mobile. > >> > >> > >> The somehow dominant position VFO has taken at the moment, might hence > >> not be the fact we see tomorrow. That will all depend much on what > >> happens in the electronic world all generally. A decade ago, prior to > >> the first IPhone, everyone would have claimed that Windows was here to > >> stay. Then came the first IPhone, then the IPad, and today many a user > >> does not even own a computer any longer. Recently, I did see a > >> relatively up-to-date Android device, straight from the store shelf, > >> with all warrantees intact, advertised well under 100 dollars. Turn it > >> on, hold two fingers anywhere on the screen, and your device is fully > >> loaded with a screen reader, in less than five minutes. Just HOW well > >> will Jaws face that figure? Buy yourself a computer for anything from > >> 300 to 1500 dollars, invest another 1200 dollars of software, add on > >> 1200 for the screen reader; spend an hour or two in installing, > >> licensing and updating your brand new pet. Guess you see my point. You > >> do all of this, should you need to. But for the user who doesn't > need to? > >> > >> > >> Further, keep in mind, that many who turns blind today, already are > >> quite familiar with Android and Phone/Ipad products. Being the kind of > >> equipment many - even school kids - now aday are acquainted with, they > >> might not even have the skills needed for starting out with a computer. > >> Turning blind today, you don't have one or two years to spend in a > >> special institution for the blind, hoping to learn something > >> old-fashioned, then imagining yourself getting back into some kind of a > >> daily living. You simply HAVE TO get going more or less right away. And > >> since you already own the mobile device, and all you need is to activate > >> the screen reader pre-installed on it, you soon enough will choose that > >> avenue. Should you now, in addition want to get your computer going for > >> certain tasks, why go through all the hazzle of raising the 1200 > >> dollars, when you can be in business simply by downloading and > >> installing NVDA, and be up running in less than ten minutes? You know, > >> you don't even need two eyes to download it for you; you've got Narrator > >> for that part of the job. > >> > >> > >> Again, Jaws might be well enough for those of us who have more heavy > >> needs on the Windows-based systems. But as time moves on, we likely will > >> slide in the background. Tomorrow's user, likely won't need Jaws, and > >> can enjoy a heavy good load of donuts and coffee, for the 1200 saved. :) > >> > >> > >> David > >> > >> On 9/11/2017 12:54 AM, Loy via Talk wrote: > >>> NVDA is not far from being as good as JAWS and I can see it > happening that people will download the free program instead of paying > hundreds of dollars for a very similar program. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Josh Kennedy via Talk > >>> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > >>> Cc: Josh Kennedy > >>> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 4:23 PM > >>> Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? > >>> > >>> > >>> Why couldn't it happen? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 9/10/2017 3:47 PM, Dennis Long via Talk wrote: > >>> > I don't see that happening. > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: Talk > [mailto:[email protected]] On > Behalf Of Josh Kennedy via Talk > >>> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 1:08 PM > >>> > To: David; Window-Eyes Discussion List > >>> > Cc: Josh Kennedy > >>> > Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? > >>> > > >>> > I wonder what VFO would do if NVDA starting eating into > their business profits? If free open source NVDA would become way more > popular than jaws and would still be open source? > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On 9/10/2017 2:54 AM, David wrote: > >>> >> Matter of fact, this question was raised a couple of days > after the > >>> >> anouncement of the discontinued development of WinEyes. I > will get > >>> >> back to what Doug said back then. First of all, let's > take a quick look at facts. > >>> >> > >>> >> Had it been as easy as WinEyes would have been a > stand-alone software, > >>> >> with all its coding done 'in-house', things would have > been pretty easy. > >>> >> And had it been that Doug and Dan had been the only ones > to develop > >>> >> the software, they could have decided whatever they wanted. > >>> >> > >>> >> Things are not that easy! > >>> >> First of all, what doug pointed out, was that to get the better > >>> >> functionality of WinEyes, they had to reach certain > agreements with - > >>> >> for instance Adobe - to get access to third-party > software, kind of > >>> >> behind the scene. If they open-sourced the code, now > these techniques > >>> >> might be disclosed to the public, threatening the > products of the > >>> >> third-party manufacturer. In turn, this of course would lead to > >>> >> people, not working on assistive technology at all, to > get hold of the > >>> >> key for the backdoor of - say Adobe's reader - and use it > for unwanted > >>> >> activity, or even malware development. > >>> >> > >>> >> Secondly, WinEyes had a feature of offering you loads of > apps. Many of > >>> >> them are open-sourced, but WinEyes holds a chance for the app > >>> >> developer to cryptize his code, for protecting against > peekers. This > >>> >> was a benefit, for instance when the app has to access a > server, and > >>> >> maybe even use some login credencials, to perform the activity. > >>> >> Without me knowing for sure, we could think of an app like > >>> >> WeatherOrNot, which has to access a server, retrieve > weather details, and process them for you. > >>> >> Now if the developer has reached a given agreement with the > >>> >> weather-server provider, that his app will gain free > access, under the > >>> >> condition of not disclosing the login credencials, we are > in trouble > >>> >> in open-sourcing WinEyes. By doing so, we would disclose the > >>> >> cryptizing code, opening up for people to break the > cryptized code of > >>> >> the app, get to the credencials, and then misuse it. > >>> >> > >>> >> Part of the agreement GW made with their app developers, > by providing > >>> >> the cryptizing feature, was to keep the app code an > enclosed program. > >>> >> They might get into legal issues, should they disclose > the cryptizer, > >>> >> thereby lay bare the very code of the app developer, who > in turn might > >>> >> sue GW for breaking the agreement. This is kind of backed > up, by a > >>> >> message Doug posted several years back, when someone > claimed they had > >>> >> broken the cryptizer. > >>> >> > >>> >> Furthermore, it has been confirmed from Aaron, that some > of the apps > >>> >> directly from GW, like AppGet, do hold credencials for > accessing the > >>> >> servers of GW. It is unlikely that they want to have > these credencials > >>> >> open-sourced. In particular so, if you remember the > attack someone > >>> >> gave them a few years back, when the code of the > GWToolkit was hacked, > >>> >> and gave many a WinEyes user quite a shock the morning > they turned on > >>> >> their computer, and got a threatening message on their screen. > >>> >> > >>> >> Mind you, GW got into a cooperation with Microsoft, when they > >>> >> introduced the WEForOffice program. Even here, they told > that this > >>> >> agreement would put them in specially close relationship > with the > >>> >> ingeneers of Microsoft. Who knows what closures might be > involved > >>> >> there, and which would be broken, had WE got open-sourced. > >>> >> > >>> >> Now let's move back to the answer Doug gave back in the > spring this > >>> >> year. The above is a bit of an elaboration of what he said. > You will > >>> >> find his answer in the archives, but in very short terms: > >>> >> NOPE! WinEyes code CANNNOT go open-source; If for > no other > >>> >> reasons, due to the infringement of third-party > agreements involved. > >>> >> > >>> >> All of this, actually leads me to once again raising the > very question: > >>> >> Does VFO even have access to the WinEyes code? > >>> >> VFO might have bought AISquared, thereby also the former > GWMicro. But > >>> >> they might not have bought the copyright of the source-code. And > >>> >> perhaps that was never intended either. Seems all they > wanted, was to > >>> >> rid the market of any competition, period. Who knows, maybe Doug > >>> >> simply hit the Delete-key, the last thing before he > handed in the key > >>> >> for the Office front-door? > >>> >> > >>> >> And to assume that VFO's tech personel would bother to plow the > >>> >> thousands of lines of coding for WinEyes, in hope of hitting the > >>> >> technique used to perform a simple task, is out of range. > It would > >>> >> take hours, days or even weeks, to figure why things have > been done > >>> >> the way they were. Or, to find the part of a signed > contract, that > >>> >> possibly could be renewed in VFO's favor. Far more > cost-effective, and > >>> >> resource sufficient, to simply look at the behavior of > the WinEyes > >>> >> product, and sit down developing the same bahavior from > scratch. Even > >>> >> calling Adobe, Microsoft, AVG, Avast and so forth, asking > for a brand > >>> >> new contract. A contract VFO already has in place. So my > big guess is, > >>> >> VFO DO NOT NEED the code of the WinEyes screen reader, > and never did. > >>> >> They needed the market, and that is what they've currently got. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> On 9/10/2017 3:01 AM, Josh Kennedy via Talk wrote: > >>> >> > hi > >>> >> > > >>> >> > Is there any possibility since window eyes is no > longer supported > >>> >> to get the window-eyes source code make it open source > and put it up > >>> >> on the github website? then other developers could keep > developing window eyes. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > -- > >>> > sent with mozilla thunderbird > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely > those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > >>> > > >>> > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/dennisl1982%40gmail.com. > >>> > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely > those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > >>> > > >>> > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/joshuakennedy201%40comcast.net. > >>> > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> > >>> -- > >>> sent with mozilla thunderbird > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely > those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > >>> > >>> For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/loyrg2845%40gmail.com. > >>> For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those > of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > >>> > >>> For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > >>> For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >>> . > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of > the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > >> > >> For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/mcommerford%40comcast.net. > >> For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >> List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of > the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. > > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/jesusloves1966%40gmail.com. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > > _______________________________________________ > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author > and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. > > For membership options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/joshuakennedy201%40comcast.net. > For subscription options, visit > http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com > List archives can be found at > http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com -- sent with mozilla thunderbird _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/dennisl1982%40gmail.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com _______________________________________________ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
