Hi all!
I am starting to say this to everyone.
You must use more than one screen reader to access everything. I could
tell you many examples of when NVDA accesses things and JAWS does not at
all.
On the other hand, I could give you many examples of when JAWS accesses
what I need, and NVDA does not. Narrator is no slouch in Windows 10. I use
Narrator in many of Windows 10 universal apps.
I watch TV on a web site, where I need NVDA.
JAWS cannot access that site at all.
On my mobile Facebook page, JAWS does a much better job than NVDA.
So, here is my recommendation:
You need to be very fluent in JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator, and you will be
able to access almost everything that a sighted person does.
With JAWS, you must be comfortable with using the touch cursor, because it
memics swiping and tapping the screen with the keyboard. That is what you
need to use many of the Windows 10 universal apps.
NVDA, has the great option of being able to route the mouse pointer right
to where the focus is. JAWS has no command to do that. Routing the JAWS
cursor to the PC cursor works for me, about 10 percent of the time. NVDA
is much different, because you can move the pointer with your mouse, and
route the pointer right to where you are at on any object. NVDA allows you
to route the mouse pointer to where you are, and then you can do a click
with your mouse. That is the only way I can interact with many controls on
media pages and the like.
Please let me know what I can do for you, because I have many tutorials on
using NVDA, and JAWS with Windows 10.
You need to use three browsers as well.
Chrome is the best, then Firefox, and IE 11, should be your very last
choice, because it is very insecure. IE 11, should only be used if it is
an emergency!
Have a great one!
David Moore
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: David via Talk
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:29 PM
To: [email protected]; Window-Eyes Discussion List
Cc: David
Subject: Re: window-eyes open source?
Could be a number of reasons, why the one screen reader works better
than the other, in a given situation. And without knowing more than
anyone else, it might all be guessing, should we claim to know the
reasons.
For one thing, the commercial screen readers, are being developed by
ingeneers who are on some kind of payment. The longer they take, the
more a certain feature development costs. In reality, this will mean
that unless we want to fork out a thousand dollar extra for the next
update to the screen reader, they have to somehow limit how much time
they invest in one particular area of the development.
NVDA, being a more or less volunteer product, will not have this
economic barrier, hence the developers can take the time they need, to
have the feature in place properly.
Next, any developer is only a human. We all tend to do things a
certain way, and sometimes might not have the full expertise in
understanding other ways to perform the same task. Most ingeneers are
stationed in an Office, at a fixed location. They only have access to
what the company lets them have access to, when comes to third-party
software, Websites and computer material.
NVDA, being an Internationally decentralized project, with several
developers spread out across boarders and facilities, will have access
to far more examples close to everyday life. Many of the developers
might be blind people, who finds it tricky to handle a certain task.
They can develop their new feature, or (du to the open-sourcing,)
modify an existing one. And, they can do so DIRECTLY on the very
website, machine or software, posing the problem. They don't have to
write any hour-list, hoping for their boss to pay them at the end of the
month.
Since the ingeneers of the commercial products are under influence by
a company that often tends to stick to the 'yesterdays', and have to
base all their programming on the reasoning and coding of two or more
decades ago, they might not have the full flexibility of today's
programming tools. They might also suffer from a lite version of
professional pride, which sometimes can prevent them from seeing
possibilities. Even GW had such issues. At least a couple of cases, we
were clear-cut told from the developing team, that a certain feature
was not possible. In one case, they straight forward claimed that
"Windows will not allow us to do this."
a few days later, a volunteer posted a new app, on App Central, that
performed the very task. Strange that "Windows would not let the
ingeneers of GW do the task", but an app - using their very screen
reader, which clearly is based on Windows - can handle the very job...
:(
In NVDA, such a case might not really be thinkable. If someone thinks
the task can be carried out, and they have the necessary programming
skills, they can simply go in and modify the very core of NVDA, being
open-sourced. Or, they could write a powerful add-on, which really
digs deep into the functionality of the main screen reader.
Talking about digging into the parenting screen reader, there we as
app developers often run into issues. It has been told me, though I
have not yet attempted any scripting under Jaws, that Jaws Scripting
is by far limited in possibilities, compared to the extensive
capabilities of Window-Eyes App Development. This all has to do with
the amount of access the screen reader manufacturer grants his
scripters. I might well have good ideas how to solve a given task, but
if the screen reader blocks me from performing certain operations, I
am in the basic, out of luck. Once in a while, some smart guy might
find ways to go around the bush, and will be able to surpass the
limitations of the screen reader, but that would be rather exceptional.
Again, if NVDA, in its very main core, would block a developer from
performing certain tasks, he MIGHT modify the core, and grant himself
the needed access. I do stress the term
MIGHT,
Since it could conflict some of the developing rules for the NVDA
project, and anyone attempting doing so, might do well in clarifying
with the directing board, their right to do such main-core modification.
I am just saying that it is possible. At least, the person with the
right skills, can read the main-core code, and point out to
responsible personel where the trouble nests, and what would be a
proper solution to the matter. With the commercial products, we as
paying customers have no access to the code, and when we are told
things are not possible, we are left to trust that things cannot be
solved. Why other ingeneers, of competing products, can solve the
very same challenge, you can make up your own thoughts. :)
Then we have the legal stuff. You remember the court-case between FS
and GW? If memory serves, GW had developed something, that somehow,
looked like what Jaws had already in their product. (As a side-note,
other screen readers have a similar feature, but noone sued them).
Sometimes a manufacturer might hold back from developing certain
features, in fear of getting to close to the stuff of the competitor.
NVDA, being a non-commercial, Privat-person project, might not be seen
as a legally threatening product. Even taken to court, it might not be
a valid case, since all the ingeneers ever could own, is the WAY a
task is solved, NOT the SOLUTION itself.
Might I tell you, that some decades ago, someone "invented" a
technique of lifting sunken ships from the seabed, by use of polystyrene
pearls.
They thought the idea so great, they wanted to patentize the whole
method. Problem was, that Donal Duck had already invented the method,
in a story some years before; hence HE (Donald Duck) was the rightful
owner of the idea. yet, it is told the outcome of the whole story, is
that the company holds the patent of HOW to blow the pearls into the
sunken ship, but has NO rights for the idea of using this method for
lifting ships.
OH, well, even should it all turn out being only a good story, it
still illustrates how complicated legal stuff sometimes can be. And it
further somehow could tell why NVDA might have less to fear, in
'snapping' good ideas from other products, than what a commercial
product would have to face.
Summing it all up:
Old-fashioned code making up the base for further development,
Stubborn professionals, Economic intrests, and fear of legal
infringements
- will only be the shell of why one screen reader might perform better
than the other, on a given case.
might I just hook on to all of this, that there might be cases when
NVDA really WOULD fall short of the commercials. This would be in
cases, when the screen reader's performance depends on access to a
third-party software, and where such access only will be granted,
through a costly and heavily claused contract with the software owner.
Or, in cases when the software manufacturer simply denies anyone else,
but commercially developed projects, any extensive access. Microsoft
wanted to deny access to certain programming features, clearly
blocking screen readers in general out from given parts of the
Windows-based world. They lost their case in the court (about a decade
ago), and was forced to lay open the necessary info for ingeneers to
hook on to part of the OS. This might have boosted the screen reader
industry, and might even have benefitted many other software
developers. But unless NVDA might have the money to sign contracts,
they might be left outside, when it comes to certain access;no matter
how great their ingeneers are. Being an open-sourced product, meaning
that the access they are granted will be readily available to anyone,
might cause certain manufacturer to refuse granting NVDA any real
access to their products. In those cases, only commercial projects,
with loads of money and secretly closed up coding, will be granted the
necessary access to perform well under a given environment.
On 9/11/2017 8:38 PM, Marvin Commerford via Talk wrote:
> Hi. What you said makes sense. For me there are things that
actually work better in NVDA than they do in Jaws which surprises me
quite a bit. If you use Thunderbird's message list NVDA does a far
better job than Jaws does. If you delete an unread message from the
list Jaws rereads the information from the message you deleted. I
tried using the Jaws convoluted UI to try to fix this but gave up
after close to an hour. NVDA does not do this and also tells you how
many messages there are in a TB folder. I so far haven't found a web
page in Firefox that works better with Jaws than it does with NVDA.
I'm still hoping for pleasant surprises from Jaws but I'm not holding
my breath. I believe in having a commercial screen reader because
those companies have more resources to keep up with Microsoft.
However, at this time I'd find it hard to recommend the purchase of
Jaws to a friend or student who has limitted financial resources.
>
> On 9/11/2017 2:09 AM, David via Talk wrote:
>> You know, I too am tempted to believe, NVDA will take over some
screen
>> reader users. For one thing, as NVDA becomes yet more powerful, and
>> widely known, it might happen that paying authorities or cherities,
will
>> refuse to pay hundreds (or in translated version thousands) of
dollars
>> for Jaws. And due to the dominance VFO currently has on the asistive
>> market, they can raise the price as they desire.
>>
>> No. NVDA is far from good enough for a professional run, in a work
>> position where effeciency counts. It does come short when comes to
>> certain pieces of software, and it takes some modification and
>> scripting, to have it up running. Jaws is, like it or not, a
>> full-fledged screen reader, in many cases working somehow right out
of
>> the box. Sure, I did say somehow. Not even WinEyes did always work
right
>> out of the box; or why did we get the app feature of WinEyes, do
you think?
>>
>> But for the general home user, who wants to write and read emails,
who
>> has already invested in a scanner and OCR software, and who needs to
>> perform general activities on the net (paying bills, checking the
weekly
>> offer of their favorite store, and lookup something on Yahoo or
>> Google)... For those users, I am ready to say NVDA already will be
close
>> to good enough. I don't really see too much that Jaws performs, or
does
>> better, than NVDA on that front.
>>
>>
>> VFO bought AISquared, and in effect GWMicro. Since the agreement of
the
>> merge is not publicly known, we do not know how that all came around,
or
>> what was the thought behind. Who initiated and so forth.
>>
>> < IF
>>
>> the intension was to grow bigger, they really managed; for the time
>> being. Was the idea of it all to control the market? Well, somehow
maybe
>> they have currently managed. But there is something about being the
>> biggest and only one in town. You also will have to deal with ALL
the
>> queries. And, though the world map looks far more International
today
>> than two decades ago, many customers are facing ecconomic issues
that
>> might affect their chances of buying a wildly priced product.
Somehow,
>> we could think this to be some of the consequences of the
WEForOffice
>> program, which did open up for even the less bolstered wallet to
provide
>> the needy one with a full-fledged screen reader. Now that this
program
>> eventually will be obsolete, NVDA might be the choice -even the ONLY
>> choice - for many a private user. Or, they might - if their activity
>> does not rely solely on Windows - leave the whole computer world
>> together, and go mobile.
>>
>>
>> The somehow dominant position VFO has taken at the moment, might
hence
>> not be the fact we see tomorrow. That will all depend much on what
>> happens in the electronic world all generally. A decade ago, prior
to
>> the first IPhone, everyone would have claimed that Windows was here
to
>> stay. Then came the first IPhone, then the IPad, and today many a
user
>> does not even own a computer any longer. Recently, I did see a
>> relatively up-to-date Android device, straight from the store shelf,
>> with all warrantees intact, advertised well under 100 dollars. Turn
it
>> on, hold two fingers anywhere on the screen, and your device is
fully
>> loaded with a screen reader, in less than five minutes. Just HOW
well
>> will Jaws face that figure? Buy yourself a computer for anything
from
>> 300 to 1500 dollars, invest another 1200 dollars of software, add on
>> 1200 for the screen reader; spend an hour or two in installing,
>> licensing and updating your brand new pet. Guess you see my point.
You
>> do all of this, should you need to. But for the user who doesn't
need to?
>>
>>
>> Further, keep in mind, that many who turns blind today, already are
>> quite familiar with Android and Phone/Ipad products. Being the kind
of
>> equipment many - even school kids - now aday are acquainted with,
they
>> might not even have the skills needed for starting out with a
computer.
>> Turning blind today, you don't have one or two years to spend in a
>> special institution for the blind, hoping to learn something
>> old-fashioned, then imagining yourself getting back into some kind of
a
>> daily living. You simply HAVE TO get going more or less right away.
And
>> since you already own the mobile device, and all you need is to
activate
>> the screen reader pre-installed on it, you soon enough will choose
that
>> avenue. Should you now, in addition want to get your computer going
for
>> certain tasks, why go through all the hazzle of raising the 1200
>> dollars, when you can be in business simply by downloading and
>> installing NVDA, and be up running in less than ten minutes? You
know,
>> you don't even need two eyes to download it for you; you've got
Narrator
>> for that part of the job.
>>
>>
>> Again, Jaws might be well enough for those of us who have more heavy
>> needs on the Windows-based systems. But as time moves on, we likely
will
>> slide in the background. Tomorrow's user, likely won't need Jaws,
and
>> can enjoy a heavy good load of donuts and coffee, for the 1200 saved.
:)
>>
>>
>> David
>>
>> On 9/11/2017 12:54 AM, Loy via Talk wrote:
>>> NVDA is not far from being as good as JAWS and I can see it
happening that people will download the free program instead of paying
hundreds of dollars for a very similar program.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Josh Kennedy via Talk
>>> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List
>>> Cc: Josh Kennedy
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 4:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: window-eyes open source?
>>>
>>>
>>> Why couldn't it happen?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 9/10/2017 3:47 PM, Dennis Long via Talk wrote:
>>> > I don't see that happening.
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Talk
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Josh Kennedy via Talk
>>> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 1:08 PM
>>> > To: David; Window-Eyes Discussion List
>>> > Cc: Josh Kennedy
>>> > Subject: Re: window-eyes open source?
>>> >
>>> > I wonder what VFO would do if NVDA starting eating into
their business profits? If free open source NVDA would become way more
popular than jaws and would still be open source?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 9/10/2017 2:54 AM, David wrote:
>>> >> Matter of fact, this question was raised a couple of days
after the
>>> >> anouncement of the discontinued development of WinEyes. I
will get
>>> >> back to what Doug said back then. First of all, let's
take a quick look at facts.
>>> >>
>>> >> Had it been as easy as WinEyes would have been a
stand-alone software,
>>> >> with all its coding done 'in-house', things would have
been pretty easy.
>>> >> And had it been that Doug and Dan had been the only ones
to develop
>>> >> the software, they could have decided whatever they wanted.
>>> >>
>>> >> Things are not that easy!
>>> >> First of all, what doug pointed out, was that to get the
better
>>> >> functionality of WinEyes, they had to reach certain
agreements with -
>>> >> for instance Adobe - to get access to third-party
software, kind of
>>> >> behind the scene. If they open-sourced the code, now
these techniques
>>> >> might be disclosed to the public, threatening the
products of the
>>> >> third-party manufacturer. In turn, this of course would lead
to
>>> >> people, not working on assistive technology at all, to
get hold of the
>>> >> key for the backdoor of - say Adobe's reader - and use it
for unwanted
>>> >> activity, or even malware development.
>>> >>
>>> >> Secondly, WinEyes had a feature of offering you loads of
apps. Many of
>>> >> them are open-sourced, but WinEyes holds a chance for the
app
>>> >> developer to cryptize his code, for protecting against
peekers. This
>>> >> was a benefit, for instance when the app has to access a
server, and
>>> >> maybe even use some login credencials, to perform the
activity.
>>> >> Without me knowing for sure, we could think of an app like
>>> >> WeatherOrNot, which has to access a server, retrieve
weather details, and process them for you.
>>> >> Now if the developer has reached a given agreement with the
>>> >> weather-server provider, that his app will gain free
access, under the
>>> >> condition of not disclosing the login credencials, we are
in trouble
>>> >> in open-sourcing WinEyes. By doing so, we would disclose the
>>> >> cryptizing code, opening up for people to break the
cryptized code of
>>> >> the app, get to the credencials, and then misuse it.
>>> >>
>>> >> Part of the agreement GW made with their app developers,
by providing
>>> >> the cryptizing feature, was to keep the app code an
enclosed program.
>>> >> They might get into legal issues, should they disclose
the cryptizer,
>>> >> thereby lay bare the very code of the app developer, who
in turn might
>>> >> sue GW for breaking the agreement. This is kind of backed
up, by a
>>> >> message Doug posted several years back, when someone
claimed they had
>>> >> broken the cryptizer.
>>> >>
>>> >> Furthermore, it has been confirmed from Aaron, that some
of the apps
>>> >> directly from GW, like AppGet, do hold credencials for
accessing the
>>> >> servers of GW. It is unlikely that they want to have
these credencials
>>> >> open-sourced. In particular so, if you remember the
attack someone
>>> >> gave them a few years back, when the code of the
GWToolkit was hacked,
>>> >> and gave many a WinEyes user quite a shock the morning
they turned on
>>> >> their computer, and got a threatening message on their
screen.
>>> >>
>>> >> Mind you, GW got into a cooperation with Microsoft, when
they
>>> >> introduced the WEForOffice program. Even here, they told
that this
>>> >> agreement would put them in specially close relationship
with the
>>> >> ingeneers of Microsoft. Who knows what closures might be
involved
>>> >> there, and which would be broken, had WE got open-sourced.
>>> >>
>>> >> Now let's move back to the answer Doug gave back in the
spring this
>>> >> year. The above is a bit of an elaboration of what he said.
You will
>>> >> find his answer in the archives, but in very short terms:
>>> >> NOPE! WinEyes code CANNNOT go open-source; If for
no other
>>> >> reasons, due to the infringement of third-party
agreements involved.
>>> >>
>>> >> All of this, actually leads me to once again raising the
very question:
>>> >> Does VFO even have access to the WinEyes code?
>>> >> VFO might have bought AISquared, thereby also the former
GWMicro. But
>>> >> they might not have bought the copyright of the source-code.
And
>>> >> perhaps that was never intended either. Seems all they
wanted, was to
>>> >> rid the market of any competition, period. Who knows, maybe
Doug
>>> >> simply hit the Delete-key, the last thing before he
handed in the key
>>> >> for the Office front-door?
>>> >>
>>> >> And to assume that VFO's tech personel would bother to plow
the
>>> >> thousands of lines of coding for WinEyes, in hope of hitting
the
>>> >> technique used to perform a simple task, is out of range.
It would
>>> >> take hours, days or even weeks, to figure why things have
been done
>>> >> the way they were. Or, to find the part of a signed
contract, that
>>> >> possibly could be renewed in VFO's favor. Far more
cost-effective, and
>>> >> resource sufficient, to simply look at the behavior of
the WinEyes
>>> >> product, and sit down developing the same bahavior from
scratch. Even
>>> >> calling Adobe, Microsoft, AVG, Avast and so forth, asking
for a brand
>>> >> new contract. A contract VFO already has in place. So my
big guess is,
>>> >> VFO DO NOT NEED the code of the WinEyes screen reader,
and never did.
>>> >> They needed the market, and that is what they've currently
got.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> On 9/10/2017 3:01 AM, Josh Kennedy via Talk wrote:
>>> >> > hi
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Is there any possibility since window eyes is no
longer supported
>>> >> to get the window-eyes source code make it open source
and put it up
>>> >> on the github website? then other developers could keep
developing window eyes.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > --
>>> > sent with mozilla thunderbird
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>> >
>>> > For membership options, visit
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/dennisl1982%40gmail.com.
>>> > For subscription options, visit
http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
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http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>> >
>>> > For membership options, visit
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/joshuakennedy201%40comcast.net.
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>>>
>>> --
>>> sent with mozilla thunderbird
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely
those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>>
>>> For membership options, visit
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of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>>
>>> For membership options, visit
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>>> .
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of
the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared.
>>
>> For membership options, visit
http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/mcommerford%40comcast.net.
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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