Hi: Also, if you wanted to make the Window-eyes code open source, you would have to wait 5 or 10 years until the copywright expires, assuming there is a copywright, but by that time, the code would be so old that it would probably be totally useless. Kevin Huber
On 9/12/17, Dennis Long via Talk <[email protected]> wrote: > Get real that wouldn't be able to be done! They couldn't afford to pay > staff! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Talk [mailto:[email protected]] > On Behalf Of Josh Kennedy via Talk > Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 7:33 AM > To: Window-Eyes Discussion List > Cc: Josh Kennedy > Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? > > But for those who cannot afford Jaws they are left out. That is why FS > should make a low cost jaws rental program for maybe the price of a netflix > subscription, and the more you pay then you can add friends onto your jaws > account and let close friends use jaws, like I let one or two other family > members use my netflix account. > > > > On 9/11/2017 7:53 PM, David Moore via Talk wrote: >> Hi all! >> I am starting to say this to everyone. >> You must use more than one screen reader to access everything. I could >> tell you many examples of when NVDA accesses things and JAWS does not at >> all. >> On the other hand, I could give you many examples of when JAWS accesses >> what I need, and NVDA does not. Narrator is no slouch in Windows 10. I use >> Narrator in many of Windows 10 universal apps. >> I watch TV on a web site, where I need NVDA. >> JAWS cannot access that site at all. >> On my mobile Facebook page, JAWS does a much better job than NVDA. >> So, here is my recommendation: >> You need to be very fluent in JAWS, NVDA, and Narrator, and you will be >> able to access almost everything that a sighted person does. >> With JAWS, you must be comfortable with using the touch cursor, because it >> memics swiping and tapping the screen with the keyboard. That is what you >> need to use many of the Windows 10 universal apps. >> NVDA, has the great option of being able to route the mouse pointer right >> to where the focus is. JAWS has no command to do that. Routing the JAWS >> cursor to the PC cursor works for me, about 10 percent of the time. NVDA >> is much different, because you can move the pointer with your mouse, and >> route the pointer right to where you are at on any object. NVDA allows you >> to route the mouse pointer to where you are, and then you can do a click >> with your mouse. That is the only way I can interact with many controls on >> media pages and the like. >> Please let me know what I can do for you, because I have many tutorials on >> using NVDA, and JAWS with Windows 10. >> You need to use three browsers as well. >> Chrome is the best, then Firefox, and IE 11, should be your very last >> choice, because it is very insecure. IE 11, should only be used if it is >> an emergency! >> Have a great one! >> David Moore >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> From: David via Talk >> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:29 PM >> To: [email protected]; Window-Eyes Discussion List >> Cc: David >> Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? >> >> Could be a number of reasons, why the one screen reader works better >> than the other, in a given situation. And without knowing more than >> anyone else, it might all be guessing, should we claim to know the >> reasons. >> >> For one thing, the commercial screen readers, are being developed by >> ingeneers who are on some kind of payment. The longer they take, the >> more a certain feature development costs. In reality, this will mean >> that unless we want to fork out a thousand dollar extra for the next >> update to the screen reader, they have to somehow limit how much time >> they invest in one particular area of the development. >> NVDA, being a more or less volunteer product, will not have this >> economic barrier, hence the developers can take the time they need, to >> have the feature in place properly. >> >> Next, any developer is only a human. We all tend to do things a >> certain way, and sometimes might not have the full expertise in >> understanding other ways to perform the same task. Most ingeneers are >> stationed in an Office, at a fixed location. They only have access to >> what the company lets them have access to, when comes to third-party >> software, Websites and computer material. >> NVDA, being an Internationally decentralized project, with several >> developers spread out across boarders and facilities, will have access >> to far more examples close to everyday life. Many of the developers >> might be blind people, who finds it tricky to handle a certain task. >> They can develop their new feature, or (du to the open-sourcing,) >> modify an existing one. And, they can do so DIRECTLY on the very >> website, machine or software, posing the problem. They don't have to >> write any hour-list, hoping for their boss to pay them at the end of the >> month. >> >> Since the ingeneers of the commercial products are under influence by >> a company that often tends to stick to the 'yesterdays', and have to >> base all their programming on the reasoning and coding of two or more >> decades ago, they might not have the full flexibility of today's >> programming tools. They might also suffer from a lite version of >> professional pride, which sometimes can prevent them from seeing >> possibilities. Even GW had such issues. At least a couple of cases, we >> were clear-cut told from the developing team, that a certain feature >> was not possible. In one case, they straight forward claimed that >> "Windows will not allow us to do this." >> a few days later, a volunteer posted a new app, on App Central, that >> performed the very task. Strange that "Windows would not let the >> ingeneers of GW do the task", but an app - using their very screen >> reader, which clearly is based on Windows - can handle the very job... >> :( >> >> In NVDA, such a case might not really be thinkable. If someone thinks >> the task can be carried out, and they have the necessary programming >> skills, they can simply go in and modify the very core of NVDA, being >> open-sourced. Or, they could write a powerful add-on, which really >> digs deep into the functionality of the main screen reader. >> >> Talking about digging into the parenting screen reader, there we as >> app developers often run into issues. It has been told me, though I >> have not yet attempted any scripting under Jaws, that Jaws Scripting >> is by far limited in possibilities, compared to the extensive >> capabilities of Window-Eyes App Development. This all has to do with >> the amount of access the screen reader manufacturer grants his >> scripters. I might well have good ideas how to solve a given task, but >> if the screen reader blocks me from performing certain operations, I >> am in the basic, out of luck. Once in a while, some smart guy might >> find ways to go around the bush, and will be able to surpass the >> limitations of the screen reader, but that would be rather exceptional. >> >> Again, if NVDA, in its very main core, would block a developer from >> performing certain tasks, he MIGHT modify the core, and grant himself >> the needed access. I do stress the term >> MIGHT, >> Since it could conflict some of the developing rules for the NVDA >> project, and anyone attempting doing so, might do well in clarifying >> with the directing board, their right to do such main-core modification. >> I am just saying that it is possible. At least, the person with the >> right skills, can read the main-core code, and point out to >> responsible personel where the trouble nests, and what would be a >> proper solution to the matter. With the commercial products, we as >> paying customers have no access to the code, and when we are told >> things are not possible, we are left to trust that things cannot be >> solved. Why other ingeneers, of competing products, can solve the >> very same challenge, you can make up your own thoughts. :) >> >> Then we have the legal stuff. You remember the court-case between FS >> and GW? If memory serves, GW had developed something, that somehow, >> looked like what Jaws had already in their product. (As a side-note, >> other screen readers have a similar feature, but noone sued them). >> Sometimes a manufacturer might hold back from developing certain >> features, in fear of getting to close to the stuff of the competitor. >> NVDA, being a non-commercial, Privat-person project, might not be seen >> as a legally threatening product. Even taken to court, it might not be >> a valid case, since all the ingeneers ever could own, is the WAY a >> task is solved, NOT the SOLUTION itself. >> >> Might I tell you, that some decades ago, someone "invented" a >> technique of lifting sunken ships from the seabed, by use of polystyrene >> pearls. >> They thought the idea so great, they wanted to patentize the whole >> method. Problem was, that Donal Duck had already invented the method, >> in a story some years before; hence HE (Donald Duck) was the rightful >> owner of the idea. yet, it is told the outcome of the whole story, is >> that the company holds the patent of HOW to blow the pearls into the >> sunken ship, but has NO rights for the idea of using this method for >> lifting ships. >> OH, well, even should it all turn out being only a good story, it >> still illustrates how complicated legal stuff sometimes can be. And it >> further somehow could tell why NVDA might have less to fear, in >> 'snapping' good ideas from other products, than what a commercial >> product would have to face. >> >> Summing it all up: >> Old-fashioned code making up the base for further development, >> Stubborn professionals, Economic intrests, and fear of legal >> infringements >> - will only be the shell of why one screen reader might perform better >> than the other, on a given case. >> >> might I just hook on to all of this, that there might be cases when >> NVDA really WOULD fall short of the commercials. This would be in >> cases, when the screen reader's performance depends on access to a >> third-party software, and where such access only will be granted, >> through a costly and heavily claused contract with the software owner. >> Or, in cases when the software manufacturer simply denies anyone else, >> but commercially developed projects, any extensive access. Microsoft >> wanted to deny access to certain programming features, clearly >> blocking screen readers in general out from given parts of the >> Windows-based world. They lost their case in the court (about a decade >> ago), and was forced to lay open the necessary info for ingeneers to >> hook on to part of the OS. This might have boosted the screen reader >> industry, and might even have benefitted many other software >> developers. But unless NVDA might have the money to sign contracts, >> they might be left outside, when it comes to certain access;no matter >> how great their ingeneers are. Being an open-sourced product, meaning >> that the access they are granted will be readily available to anyone, >> might cause certain manufacturer to refuse granting NVDA any real >> access to their products. In those cases, only commercial projects, >> with loads of money and secretly closed up coding, will be granted the >> necessary access to perform well under a given environment. >> >> >> On 9/11/2017 8:38 PM, Marvin Commerford via Talk wrote: >> > Hi. What you said makes sense. For me there are things that >> actually work better in NVDA than they do in Jaws which surprises me >> quite a bit. If you use Thunderbird's message list NVDA does a far >> better job than Jaws does. If you delete an unread message from the >> list Jaws rereads the information from the message you deleted. I >> tried using the Jaws convoluted UI to try to fix this but gave up >> after close to an hour. NVDA does not do this and also tells you how >> many messages there are in a TB folder. I so far haven't found a web >> page in Firefox that works better with Jaws than it does with NVDA. >> I'm still hoping for pleasant surprises from Jaws but I'm not holding >> my breath. I believe in having a commercial screen reader because >> those companies have more resources to keep up with Microsoft. >> However, at this time I'd find it hard to recommend the purchase of >> Jaws to a friend or student who has limitted financial resources. >> > >> > On 9/11/2017 2:09 AM, David via Talk wrote: >> >> You know, I too am tempted to believe, NVDA will take over some >> screen >> >> reader users. For one thing, as NVDA becomes yet more powerful, and >> >> widely known, it might happen that paying authorities or cherities, >> will >> >> refuse to pay hundreds (or in translated version thousands) of >> dollars >> >> for Jaws. And due to the dominance VFO currently has on the asistive >> >> market, they can raise the price as they desire. >> >> >> >> No. NVDA is far from good enough for a professional run, in a work >> >> position where effeciency counts. It does come short when comes to >> >> certain pieces of software, and it takes some modification and >> >> scripting, to have it up running. Jaws is, like it or not, a >> >> full-fledged screen reader, in many cases working somehow right out >> of >> >> the box. Sure, I did say somehow. Not even WinEyes did always work >> right >> >> out of the box; or why did we get the app feature of WinEyes, do >> you think? >> >> >> >> But for the general home user, who wants to write and read emails, >> who >> >> has already invested in a scanner and OCR software, and who needs to >> >> perform general activities on the net (paying bills, checking the >> weekly >> >> offer of their favorite store, and lookup something on Yahoo or >> >> Google)... For those users, I am ready to say NVDA already will be >> close >> >> to good enough. I don't really see too much that Jaws performs, or >> does >> >> better, than NVDA on that front. >> >> >> >> >> >> VFO bought AISquared, and in effect GWMicro. Since the agreement of >> the >> >> merge is not publicly known, we do not know how that all came around, >> or >> >> what was the thought behind. Who initiated and so forth. >> >> >> >> < IF >> >> >> >> the intension was to grow bigger, they really managed; for the time >> >> being. Was the idea of it all to control the market? Well, somehow >> maybe >> >> they have currently managed. But there is something about being the >> >> biggest and only one in town. You also will have to deal with ALL >> the >> >> queries. And, though the world map looks far more International >> today >> >> than two decades ago, many customers are facing ecconomic issues >> that >> >> might affect their chances of buying a wildly priced product. >> Somehow, >> >> we could think this to be some of the consequences of the >> WEForOffice >> >> program, which did open up for even the less bolstered wallet to >> provide >> >> the needy one with a full-fledged screen reader. Now that this >> program >> >> eventually will be obsolete, NVDA might be the choice -even the ONLY >> >> choice - for many a private user. Or, they might - if their activity >> >> does not rely solely on Windows - leave the whole computer world >> >> together, and go mobile. >> >> >> >> >> >> The somehow dominant position VFO has taken at the moment, might >> hence >> >> not be the fact we see tomorrow. That will all depend much on what >> >> happens in the electronic world all generally. A decade ago, prior >> to >> >> the first IPhone, everyone would have claimed that Windows was here >> to >> >> stay. Then came the first IPhone, then the IPad, and today many a >> user >> >> does not even own a computer any longer. Recently, I did see a >> >> relatively up-to-date Android device, straight from the store shelf, >> >> with all warrantees intact, advertised well under 100 dollars. Turn >> it >> >> on, hold two fingers anywhere on the screen, and your device is >> fully >> >> loaded with a screen reader, in less than five minutes. Just HOW >> well >> >> will Jaws face that figure? Buy yourself a computer for anything >> from >> >> 300 to 1500 dollars, invest another 1200 dollars of software, add on >> >> 1200 for the screen reader; spend an hour or two in installing, >> >> licensing and updating your brand new pet. Guess you see my point. >> You >> >> do all of this, should you need to. But for the user who doesn't >> need to? >> >> >> >> >> >> Further, keep in mind, that many who turns blind today, already are >> >> quite familiar with Android and Phone/Ipad products. Being the kind >> of >> >> equipment many - even school kids - now aday are acquainted with, >> they >> >> might not even have the skills needed for starting out with a >> computer. >> >> Turning blind today, you don't have one or two years to spend in a >> >> special institution for the blind, hoping to learn something >> >> old-fashioned, then imagining yourself getting back into some kind of >> a >> >> daily living. You simply HAVE TO get going more or less right away. >> And >> >> since you already own the mobile device, and all you need is to >> activate >> >> the screen reader pre-installed on it, you soon enough will choose >> that >> >> avenue. Should you now, in addition want to get your computer going >> for >> >> certain tasks, why go through all the hazzle of raising the 1200 >> >> dollars, when you can be in business simply by downloading and >> >> installing NVDA, and be up running in less than ten minutes? You >> know, >> >> you don't even need two eyes to download it for you; you've got >> Narrator >> >> for that part of the job. >> >> >> >> >> >> Again, Jaws might be well enough for those of us who have more heavy >> >> needs on the Windows-based systems. But as time moves on, we likely >> will >> >> slide in the background. Tomorrow's user, likely won't need Jaws, >> and >> >> can enjoy a heavy good load of donuts and coffee, for the 1200 saved. >> :) >> >> >> >> >> >> David >> >> >> >> On 9/11/2017 12:54 AM, Loy via Talk wrote: >> >>> NVDA is not far from being as good as JAWS and I can see it >> happening that people will download the free program instead of paying >> hundreds of dollars for a very similar program. >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: Josh Kennedy via Talk >> >>> To: Window-Eyes Discussion List >> >>> Cc: Josh Kennedy >> >>> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 4:23 PM >> >>> Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Why couldn't it happen? >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On 9/10/2017 3:47 PM, Dennis Long via Talk wrote: >> >>> > I don't see that happening. >> >>> > >> >>> > -----Original Message----- >> >>> > From: Talk >> [mailto:[email protected]] On >> Behalf Of Josh Kennedy via Talk >> >>> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2017 1:08 PM >> >>> > To: David; Window-Eyes Discussion List >> >>> > Cc: Josh Kennedy >> >>> > Subject: Re: window-eyes open source? >> >>> > >> >>> > I wonder what VFO would do if NVDA starting eating into >> their business profits? If free open source NVDA would become way more >> popular than jaws and would still be open source? >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > On 9/10/2017 2:54 AM, David wrote: >> >>> >> Matter of fact, this question was raised a couple of days >> after the >> >>> >> anouncement of the discontinued development of WinEyes. I >> will get >> >>> >> back to what Doug said back then. First of all, let's >> take a quick look at facts. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Had it been as easy as WinEyes would have been a >> stand-alone software, >> >>> >> with all its coding done 'in-house', things would have >> been pretty easy. >> >>> >> And had it been that Doug and Dan had been the only ones >> to develop >> >>> >> the software, they could have decided whatever they wanted. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Things are not that easy! >> >>> >> First of all, what doug pointed out, was that to get the >> better >> >>> >> functionality of WinEyes, they had to reach certain >> agreements with - >> >>> >> for instance Adobe - to get access to third-party >> software, kind of >> >>> >> behind the scene. If they open-sourced the code, now >> these techniques >> >>> >> might be disclosed to the public, threatening the >> products of the >> >>> >> third-party manufacturer. In turn, this of course would lead >> to >> >>> >> people, not working on assistive technology at all, to >> get hold of the >> >>> >> key for the backdoor of - say Adobe's reader - and use it >> for unwanted >> >>> >> activity, or even malware development. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Secondly, WinEyes had a feature of offering you loads of >> apps. Many of >> >>> >> them are open-sourced, but WinEyes holds a chance for the >> app >> >>> >> developer to cryptize his code, for protecting against >> peekers. This >> >>> >> was a benefit, for instance when the app has to access a >> server, and >> >>> >> maybe even use some login credencials, to perform the >> activity. >> >>> >> Without me knowing for sure, we could think of an app like >> >>> >> WeatherOrNot, which has to access a server, retrieve >> weather details, and process them for you. >> >>> >> Now if the developer has reached a given agreement with the >> >>> >> weather-server provider, that his app will gain free >> access, under the >> >>> >> condition of not disclosing the login credencials, we are >> in trouble >> >>> >> in open-sourcing WinEyes. By doing so, we would disclose the >> >>> >> cryptizing code, opening up for people to break the >> cryptized code of >> >>> >> the app, get to the credencials, and then misuse it. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Part of the agreement GW made with their app developers, >> by providing >> >>> >> the cryptizing feature, was to keep the app code an >> enclosed program. >> >>> >> They might get into legal issues, should they disclose >> the cryptizer, >> >>> >> thereby lay bare the very code of the app developer, who >> in turn might >> >>> >> sue GW for breaking the agreement. This is kind of backed >> up, by a >> >>> >> message Doug posted several years back, when someone >> claimed they had >> >>> >> broken the cryptizer. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Furthermore, it has been confirmed from Aaron, that some >> of the apps >> >>> >> directly from GW, like AppGet, do hold credencials for >> accessing the >> >>> >> servers of GW. It is unlikely that they want to have >> these credencials >> >>> >> open-sourced. In particular so, if you remember the >> attack someone >> >>> >> gave them a few years back, when the code of the >> GWToolkit was hacked, >> >>> >> and gave many a WinEyes user quite a shock the morning >> they turned on >> >>> >> their computer, and got a threatening message on their >> screen. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Mind you, GW got into a cooperation with Microsoft, when >> they >> >>> >> introduced the WEForOffice program. Even here, they told >> that this >> >>> >> agreement would put them in specially close relationship >> with the >> >>> >> ingeneers of Microsoft. Who knows what closures might be >> involved >> >>> >> there, and which would be broken, had WE got open-sourced. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> Now let's move back to the answer Doug gave back in the >> spring this >> >>> >> year. The above is a bit of an elaboration of what he said. >> You will >> >>> >> find his answer in the archives, but in very short terms: >> >>> >> NOPE! WinEyes code CANNNOT go open-source; If for >> no other >> >>> >> reasons, due to the infringement of third-party >> agreements involved. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> All of this, actually leads me to once again raising the >> very question: >> >>> >> Does VFO even have access to the WinEyes code? >> >>> >> VFO might have bought AISquared, thereby also the former >> GWMicro. But >> >>> >> they might not have bought the copyright of the source-code. >> And >> >>> >> perhaps that was never intended either. Seems all they >> wanted, was to >> >>> >> rid the market of any competition, period. Who knows, maybe >> Doug >> >>> >> simply hit the Delete-key, the last thing before he >> handed in the key >> >>> >> for the Office front-door? >> >>> >> >> >>> >> And to assume that VFO's tech personel would bother to plow >> the >> >>> >> thousands of lines of coding for WinEyes, in hope of hitting >> the >> >>> >> technique used to perform a simple task, is out of range. >> It would >> >>> >> take hours, days or even weeks, to figure why things have >> been done >> >>> >> the way they were. Or, to find the part of a signed >> contract, that >> >>> >> possibly could be renewed in VFO's favor. Far more >> cost-effective, and >> >>> >> resource sufficient, to simply look at the behavior of >> the WinEyes >> >>> >> product, and sit down developing the same bahavior from >> scratch. Even >> >>> >> calling Adobe, Microsoft, AVG, Avast and so forth, asking >> for a brand >> >>> >> new contract. A contract VFO already has in place. So my >> big guess is, >> >>> >> VFO DO NOT NEED the code of the WinEyes screen reader, >> and never did. >> >>> >> They needed the market, and that is what they've currently >> got. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> On 9/10/2017 3:01 AM, Josh Kennedy via Talk wrote: >> >>> >> > hi >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > Is there any possibility since window eyes is no >> longer supported >> >>> >> to get the window-eyes source code make it open source >> and put it up >> >>> >> on the github website? then other developers could keep >> developing window eyes. >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> > -- >> >>> > sent with mozilla thunderbird >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely >> those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >>> > >> >>> > For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/dennisl1982%40gmail.com. >> >>> > For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> > List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely >> those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >>> > >> >>> > For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/joshuakennedy201%40comcast.net. >> >>> > For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> > List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> sent with mozilla thunderbird >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely >> those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >>> >> >>> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/loyrg2845%40gmail.com. >> >>> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those >> of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >>> >> >>> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >> >>> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >>> . >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> >> >> >> For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/mcommerford%40comcast.net. >> >> For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> List archives can be found at >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of >> the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. >> > >> > For membership options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/trailerdavid%40hotmail.com. >> > For subscription options, visit >> http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com >> > List archives can be found at >> 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