Jeremy, If the guidelines are clear and transparent it does not need everyone to read them, regular posters know what is agreed and will promote the guidelines in the community.
Pinning is a great example, there was no standard set, so people did what they wanted. I for one thought it was a private pin only, as soon as I learned I unpinned, now I can advise others when the pin is inappropriate. Whenever this is done in the forum other onlookers learn what the standard is. The people you listed including myself, the regular posters and repliers, are all that is needed to direct MOST cases of forum behaviour. If in the long run we can't control an area enough, fine try an lock it down. Other forums have software and moderation features that people use because they are there, the misuse of these features is what kills "open forums". Regards Tony On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 7:51:12 PM UTC+11, Jeremy Ruston wrote: > > Hi Tony > > * Leave moderation functions open to everyone, and provide guidance and > gentle encouragement when their actions affect other users > > > My first concern is that people don’t read warnings. We’ve already got a > bunch of important warnings at the top of the forum, the more we add the > more we risk that users won’t bother to read any of it. So, end users will > continue to be surprised that their actions affect other people. > > Secondly, it will completely break the expectations of people who use > other forums. Forums of this size always have moderators. I’ve said before > we’re not trying to re-invent how open source communities function, we > instead seek to learn what works for other similar communities. > > Fine, If this method failed (in my view unlikely), well take another > approach. > > Ironically I did not know pins affected everyone, and I believe that is > what triggered this whole discussion. Yet what I pinned possibly deserved > it. > > > I think that’s the problem right there. We can’t have everyone who thinks > their posts are important pinning them. It’s an abuse of the way that > forums work: the idea is that topics under heavy discussion rise to the top > organically. > > My personal opinion is that pinning shouldn’t be done for the our regular > users, but rather to help provide signposts for new users, and perhaps > rarely visiting users. > > Examples of the threads I’d like to see pinned are: > > * “Newbies start here”, a thread with the top post maintained by moderators > * “Announcements”, a rolling top post of brief announcements, linking to > the original posts > > Beyond that, I’d suggest it only be used for emergencies — e.g. a release > with a bug so serious we want to prompt all users to upgrade. > > Best wishes > > Jeremy. > > One of the strengths of this community from way back is we suggested > people may want to search the group but not feel shy to ask questions. The > result is I actively answer Questions. If we continue to emphasis this > people will ask questions about pins and tags etc... and a Community FAQ > should be enough. Every member of the group can guide other users if we > understand our practices. > > > > > > Regards > Tony > > On Tuesday, December 10, 2019 at 4:10:43 AM UTC+11, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >> >> Hi Josiah >> >> Ciao Jeremy >> >> The issue on this is that it was a pretty routine issue closing threads >> on request previously. >> It helps in that readers then know you don't need to bother reading that >> thread. >> Unless a moderator is reading everything it won't happen now. >> >> I hope we can get to some kind of consensus on a way forward because >> right now it is less than optimal. >> I appreciate there are issues on closing threads, pinning & tagging (most >> issues are on the latter I think, as its not fully clear what has gone on) >> but none of it was exactly a huge problem. >> >> >> As far as I can tell we have two options: >> >> * Leave moderation functions open to everyone, which we know causes >> problems for users who don’t expect their actions to affect other users >> * Restrict moderation functions to a group of moderators, which we know >> causes frustration for people who want to be able to do moderator-like >> things without being a moderator >> >> Obviously, the latter approach is taken universally by online >> communities. We’re not trying to re-invent how online communities work (or >> at least not yet!), and so I don’t see a need to depart from what has >> worked for other communities. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Jeremy. >> >> >> >> Best wishes >> Josiah >> >> On Monday, 9 December 2019 16:40:47 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >>> >>> Hi Josiah >>> >>> I just noticed that it appears a reader can no longer "close" a thread. >>> >>> I assume that is a side effect of the recent changes in the admin system? >>> >>> Quite often authors of threads request that (as it is not possible for >>> the author of the thread to close it) it be closed when they got an answer >>> that solves it. >>> >>> Are moderators now going to look for that? It seemed to work fine >>> before. >>> >>> >>> As discussed above, the Google Groups permissions are not very granular. >>> We’ve changed a single setting called “Moderation” and it appears to affect >>> pinning, tagging, closing — pretty much everything except post. >>> >>> Best wishes >>> >>> Jeremy >>> >>> >>> >>> Best wishes >>> Josiah >>> >>> On Saturday, 7 December 2019 12:37:34 UTC+1, Jeremy Ruston wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I could be wrong, but it looks like the feature has already been turned >>>> off. I did feel that the original list of tags was too broad. >>>> >>>> >>>> It sounds like tagging is classified under the same “moderation” >>>> permission that governs the ability to pin posts. >>>> >>>> We could revert the change, but perhaps the solution here is to appoint >>>> some more group managers. The top 10 posters according to Google Groups >>>> are >>>> below. Eric is already a group manager, but it might be good if maybe 3 or >>>> 4 of these people volunteered for the role. >>>> >>>> - TonyM >>>> - Mohammad >>>> - TiddlyTweeter >>>> - Mark S >>>> - Arlen >>>> - Eric >>>> - A Gloom >>>> - PMario >>>> - (me) >>>> - Jed (inmysocks) >>>> >>>> See https://groups.google.com/forum/#!aboutgroup/tiddlywiki >>>> >>>> The group managers would: >>>> >>>> - Help Eric with moderating posts flagged by Google as spam >>>> - Pin and unpin threads >>>> - Compile pinned anthology posts summarising important >>>> announcements and discussions >>>> - And perhaps use whatever other useful moderation features may be >>>> lurking under the surface of Google Groups >>>> >>>> It also seems like we need to be more transparent about the rules and >>>> conventions we’re following to manage the group. I’d suggest adding a >>>> tiddler to tiddlywiki.com in which we describe our approach (for >>>> example, guidelines about when to pin a thread, or a thread from last year >>>> where I posted about the need to criticise ideas rather than people). >>>> Perhaps we actually need two: one called “Moderation Policies” focusing on >>>> the role of group managers and one called “Code of Conduct” focusing on >>>> the >>>> standards of behaviour we expect from everyone in the group. >>>> >>>> I’d welcome any advice/thoughts from people who have experience of >>>> other online communities. I’m sure we can do a better job overall, and I >>>> suspect more formal roles in the community will be a part of it. >>>> >>>> Best wishes >>>> >>>> Jeremy. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, December 6, 2019 at 4:55:32 AM UTC-8, TiddlyTweeter wrote: >>>>> >>>>> In another thread ... >>>>> >>>>> Jeremy Ruston wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Pinning should never have been globally available. I appreciate the >>>>>> argument that no great harm was done, but it evidently created confusion >>>>>> as >>>>>> to who could see that a thread had been pinned >>>>>> * We should agree on general rules for what threads might qualify for >>>>>> being pinned. To me, pinning would start with urgent announcements (e.g. >>>>>> if >>>>>> discovered a serious bug in a release and wanted to warn people to >>>>>> upgrade), important on-going informational threads like “Newbies start >>>>>> here” >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ciao Jeremy >>>>> >>>>> In another thread >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/gWtX7uGi2QQ/xg6sv0PICQAJ> we >>>>> discussing user v. admin privileges re PINS. >>>>> >>>>> Here I want to ask about TAGS. >>>>> >>>>> *First I just want to check IF you are aware that at the moment any >>>>> user can both add or delete TAGS on any post?* >>>>> >>>>> * +* In a way its v. good in that missing tags get added. >>>>> *+ *Its good that an original author who has not added them may >>>>> have them added by an enthusiastic user >>>>> >>>>> *-* in another way its not ideal as these don't get documented and >>>>> the numbers could get vast... >>>>> * - * I see no place user added tags get listed. >>>>> >>>>> For example, this post I gave tags: "question GoogleGroup tags" >>>>> >>>>> Tags have proved very useful for finding things here. But I'm not >>>>> sure, without moderated addition, they are optimal. >>>>> >>>>> Best wishes >>>>> TT >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7b416c3c-809f-4753-b52f-ad06ab6ff790%40googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/7b416c3c-809f-4753-b52f-ad06ab6ff790%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/adaf4afa-b901-4af1-a88b-d23357287439%40googlegroups.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/adaf4afa-b901-4af1-a88b-d23357287439%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "TiddlyWiki" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d11fbac8-153c-4767-8403-f17f80d0fb66%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d11fbac8-153c-4767-8403-f17f80d0fb66%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "TiddlyWiki" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5052c84a-7ade-4156-a6f3-1eda6d9798d2%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/5052c84a-7ade-4156-a6f3-1eda6d9798d2%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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