All of that is totally valid and well said, but do keep in mind: When something is too complex for an individual with a cognitive disability (including Edward, including me, including whoever else), the complexity of an application and/or the interface, that doesn't really get resolved by more documentation.
More documentation, in itself, becomes a cognitive barrier. The ideal is an interface that is easy to understand without any documentation. An interface that is by default at its simplest out of the gate, but easily/intuitively allows more complexity via easily found options. Complexity, by design and by default, is best as an opt-in feature, not an opt-out feature. "Opt-in" is easy for those who are not dealing with a cognitive disability, and might be possibly eased into for those with a cognitive disability. "Opt-out" can be challenging for those with a cognitive disability because everything is overwhelming by default. (Cognitive overload, over-stimulating, causing immediate deer-in-the-headlights or fight-or-flight-reaction.) Well, I can wish on the one hand and poop in the other, and I know which hand will get filled first ... (Yeah, I love "Grumpy Old Men" references. Grandpa Gustafson!) On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 3:32:52 PM UTC-3 TiddlyTweeter wrote: > Ciao Jeremy > > Very GOOD reply. Very frank, clear, to the point. You really are a very, > very good BDFL > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life>. > > Just FYI, regarding moving ... I agree with all your points. Especially > (b) where the wanting to move OFF GG has come up seriously several times in > the last few years, and which this initiative may solve. And (c) where it > is IMPORTANT *we don't rush the process of transfer* (IF any); it being > vital to ensure that Discourse will serve ALL of us well into the future. > Addressing Ed's case is highly pertinent to achieving that IMO . > > Regarding (d), the facilities Discourse offers, its looks superior to GG. > My concern is it is quite complex (rich) and I want to be sure a newbie > will be able to cope in a way they can get answers they need. > I suspect WE may need to provide more documentation to make this side of > it easier. > > Just my thoughts at the moment > > Best wishes > Josiah > On Wednesday, 25 August 2021 at 18:51:43 UTC+2 [email protected] wrote: > >> >> Hi Ed >> >> Apologies, I'm taking a short holiday break, but wanted to jump in to >> reassure you (and others) of a few points: >> >> a) talk.tiddlywiki.org is an experiment for the moment, but my hope is >> that we will migrate all of our Google Groups to the new service (and set >> the old groups to "read-only" so that they will continue to be available as >> an archive) >> >> b) the idea of migrating from Google Groups has been floating around for >> many years, but I've always been very cautious about. A great friend of >> TiddlyWiki called Boris Mann kindly offered to help get us set up on the >> new platform, an offer which was meaningful because he already runs several >> other instances of Discourse >> >> c) It has to be an experiment because we want to bring everyone with us >> to the new platform. There's been a lot of great feedback about what people >> like about the new forum, and what they struggle with. The volunteers are >> working hard to tweak the system to suit everyone >> >> d) My own experience is that Discourse is superior to Google Groups in >> almost every way, but I don't underestimate the friction of making the >> change >> >> Lastly, thank you for sharing your situation with us. Your perspective is >> inspiring, and there's a lot for us to learn about inclusivity. In the >> software development industry a certain amount of lip service is paid to >> accommodating users with visual, auditory or motor difficulties, but very >> little to cognitive impairment. I suffered from some of it when my long >> COVID was at its worst, which certainly left me thinking that these >> considerations would only increase in importance. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Jeremy >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, August 25, 2021 at 12:18:33 PM UTC+1 [email protected] >> wrote: >> >>> Someone say herding cats? Let me testify, just like with walking into >>> Mordor, you don't just herd cats. You lead them. And if they don't feel >>> like following, it probably won't be happening... >>> >>> Yes, I know I'm no help... >>> >>> Will Discourse threads be indexed by Google in general? I'm sure a few >>> people (myself included) depend on the ease of being able to find TW info >>> from this group (as well as TW official static pages) on normal Google web >>> search results (I believe TW Reddit content also will come up in web >>> searches) >>> On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:14:09 PM UTC-4 [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>>> [image: My Brain.jpg] >>>> >>>> Thank You! I do have trouble communicating my thoughts clearly and keep >>>> this photo on my phone when I run into situations where I think I may need >>>> to explain why (they do this yearly and there has been no change in the >>>> 3/4 >>>> inch diameter hole in a very big head LOL). I am not looking for pity but >>>> hoping to help make your point. We are all using TiddlyWiki with our own >>>> understanding and skills. You are also absolutely right, the condensed >>>> updates are as much or more than I can handle personally as is (you guys >>>> are way too busy!) LOL. I keep up with these just to make sure what few >>>> plugins I use are not known or expected to break as TW evolves. Also, I >>>> think it is important that Jeremy has a say in which he wants to use. >>>> Realizing of course the real discussion is happening in GIT but all of >>>> that >>>> is way over my head now anyway. Still his announcements about new features >>>> and explanations on how to use those when questions come up here as well >>>> as >>>> the base TiddlyWiki without addons or plugins (or at least as minimal a >>>> set >>>> as possible) have been extremely helpful to me. So where he goes I need to >>>> go because he knows when he adds new features he needs to make the >>>> explanations and use of them as intuitive and user friendly (there's an >>>> old >>>> term!) as possible and most likely with those explanations in mind. >>>> TiddlyWiki itself is the best example that I can think of due to its >>>> simplicity in a way. It has amazing capabilities but an ease of use >>>> unparalleled by programs that have almost none of the customization >>>> capabilities allowing it to be used as needed. I have seen efforts to >>>> write >>>> books and manuals fail not due to a lack of effort, knowledge, or ability >>>> but a lack of being able to keep up with the pace TW5 evolves which is an >>>> amazing example of how much work Jeremy and those who help him have >>>> put into this over the years! To me this group does represent a record of >>>> all that effort and progress he might prefer continues here? >>>> >>>> But not trying to argue for or against with anyone. LOL I know longer >>>> have those skills either (happily). I am Just trying to keep up, which is >>>> probably a fool's errand anyway but, also offer a reminder that unless >>>> there is a fork planned I personally feel no one should just take the >>>> community he has built here and put it over there without him at least >>>> being a part of that decision. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 23, 2021 at 10:20 PM [email protected] < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Tony, >>>>> Ed did not complain. He would not like to miss totally out on the >>>>> group and is afraid that will happen! Explained that his need was to >>>>> receive email summary as that is the only way it would be possible for >>>>> him >>>>> to enjoy the part possible for him to use. The question was not about the >>>>> reasoning for some to want the move - but: "Will I be able to receive >>>>> email >>>>> summary from this new group - and if so, can someone help me get it set >>>>> up?" >>>>> >>>>> Just as when you asked for a couple of days, why you were not able to >>>>> login and get writing in the new group - and asked repeatedly to get help >>>>> from moderators to be able to write to the group. (Sure easy to sign up - >>>>> you now write). Other people have other problems, and not everyone has >>>>> all >>>>> of your expertise in using all sorts of groups at a professional level. >>>>> >>>>> As a promoter for the move and now a leader in the new group prepare >>>>> for questions like this - and be happy when they are asked. This group is >>>>> large and lots of users have used it for years - but have special needs >>>>> to >>>>> be able to do so. If questions like this is not met with answers - those >>>>> users will just be sorry and give up without telling you - and have lost >>>>> yet another thing in life. Please remember that someone's gain is often >>>>> happening while others loose out. >>>>> >>>>> We know that quite some users of this group -found ways to keep using >>>>> Tiddlywiki and this group. And at. some point explained their special >>>>> needs >>>>> and why they needed a solution. Poor eyesight or blindness has been one >>>>> of >>>>> them. >>>>> >>>>> I would think that promoting the discourse group - why not make it >>>>> clear - can you use the group directly from receiving emails - emails >>>>> summary. Can you use the group fully if your only way of being able is >>>>> using a screen reader? >>>>> >>>>> Others have written earlier about having difficulty with busy screens, >>>>> moving parts - and lot of colour - lots of changing screens with shifting >>>>> layouts - and even more I cannot remember now. Explain how to use it for >>>>> those - if possible. >>>>> >>>>> If people with special needs are not in the target group for the the >>>>> new group - save time and explain why. >>>>> >>>>> Please think about it - and ask people to explain their problems - and >>>>> try to find solutions. Use those points in the promotion. Plenty of >>>>> telling it is beautiful, easy, what some wants etc. I think most have >>>>> read >>>>> that by now. >>>>> >>>>> And the questions have to be asked before your wished making this >>>>> group read only - because afterwards - you will never know. >>>>> >>>>> Who *IS* in the Target group for the new group? And then list the >>>>> promoting points - ALL of them. Show that list clearly in both groups. >>>>> >>>>> Please - I did not in anyway want to offend anyone - but we are not >>>>> all the same. >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 1:46:44 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ed, >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of us who are deeply imbedded and active in Google Groups have >>>>>> good reasons and arguments to move. Apart from the fact you can't even >>>>>> reply on a mobile, mark code in a forum post and more Discourse solves a >>>>>> range of problems and issues that I expect you do not experience every >>>>>> day. >>>>>> >>>>>> We can't rely on Google any more and moving to talk.tiddlywiki.org >>>>>> puts control into the communities hands. In many ways "a move" if not >>>>>> "this >>>>>> move" has being on the cards for years, however getting consensus from >>>>>> the >>>>>> community is like herding cats. To put this decision on Jeremy alone is >>>>>> also asking too much. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know change can be difficult but as always the community is here to >>>>>> help, and from what I have seen Discourse offers everything and more >>>>>> than >>>>>> GG. So I am confident we can restore the functionality you want. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please continue to raise issues but also let the community help you >>>>>> transition or solve the problems you experience, or even ultimately >>>>>> change >>>>>> our minds because of your experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you did not see yet, signing up at talk.tiddlywiki.org with your >>>>>> google login is possibly the easiest entry to the new system. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yours sincerely >>>>>> Tony >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, 24 August 2021 at 01:15:03 UTC+10 [email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unless Jeremy plans to do the same sorry but no thanks and even then >>>>>>> probably not. Other than it being a perhaps more feature rich, and >>>>>>> newer >>>>>>> platform is there really a burning need to make this switch now? I know >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> been debated here for a long time and have read the arguments both for >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> against but this sounds as though it is being forced upon us regardless >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> Jeremys reluctance to do so for some reason. Maybe google has announced >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> is killing off groups, Jeremy has decided it is for the best, or >>>>>>> something >>>>>>> else I am unaware of? (very possible I suffer from brain damage and am >>>>>>> no >>>>>>> longer really in the know anymore, but do rely on getting these emails >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> try and stay up on developments with TiddlyWiki and the plugin work >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> done). I can still use TiddlyWiki to great advantage but no longer have >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> ability to write plugins or do many things I used to do before. >>>>>>> Anything >>>>>>> new is pretty much impossible for me to learn. Will discourse offer >>>>>>> these >>>>>>> email updates like the one I am responding to here and will those of us >>>>>>> who >>>>>>> choose not to join discourse (my mind is unable to learn new things) be >>>>>>> registered to receive those if this is done or will I need to register >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> email address in their site in order to keep these condensed emails >>>>>>> coming >>>>>>> to me? I also feel there is a wealth of historical information in this >>>>>>> group that would be a shame if not transferred over (perhaps it has?) >>>>>>> Anyway, I hope replying to "all" is the proper way to ask. If not I do >>>>>>> apologize. Also, I am not being critical of this change just explaining >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> inability to do this and feel it is pointless unless Jeremy wants to >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> this change as well. If so I guess this group can still stand as an >>>>>>> archive >>>>>>> of all the history and work that has been done to get us here and if it >>>>>>> offers that condensed email capability then maybe. I DO NOT want an >>>>>>> email >>>>>>> for every post being made thats is an absolute! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> On Sunday, August 22, 2021 at 9:21:36 AM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> JW Are you on the specific instance of discourse? >>>>>>>> https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Tones >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sunday, 22 August 2021 at 20:55:10 UTC+10 JWHoneycutt wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Signed up for Discourse - can't find any hits when searching >>>>>>>>> "TiddlyWiki" - did I just lose access to the community? >>>>>>>>> JWH >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 10:23:29 PM UTC-4 >>>>>>>>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Definitely moving over to the Discourse community. See you all >>>>>>>>>> there! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Joshua Fontany >>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 21, 2021 at 3:42:18 PM UTC-7 Scott Simmons >>>>>>>>>> (Secret-HQ) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've created a profile on Talk.TiddlyWiki.org and am delighted >>>>>>>>>>> with the interface there. I'll try to ask questions and create new >>>>>>>>>>> threads >>>>>>>>>>> there rather than here, though I guess I'll be drawn back to Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>> is that's where the conversation flows. (For my part, I'm hoping >>>>>>>>>>> it moves >>>>>>>>>>> to Talk.TW) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://talk.tiddlywiki.org/u/secret-hq/ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>>> Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/tiddlywiki/rnnDIl1_b_Q/unsubscribe. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/45dede02-d163-4f3f-a927-15f7e3a2b80en%40googlegroups.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/45dede02-d163-4f3f-a927-15f7e3a2b80en%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. 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