I'm not really into having massively long debates which is why I usually stay out of feedback related things. Though I will argue a few points:
My main argument is: TW5 is up and coming and new so why would you change the name of an old program/project so a new one can have the old ones name? TW5 = HTML5+Node.js based tiddler driven Wiki (A completely new code base and system from the ground up) Where as it's name when read by anyone new or who hasn't been around for while sounds like TiddlyWiki 5 (Which in nearly everyone I have ever told about it who doesn't keep track of things automatically thinks "awesome! new major version of TiddlyWiki... Though I don't remember versions 3 and 4... I most have missed them.") * Search engines can't handle its output. * Design decisions (in code and CSS) made in 2004, just don't fit the modern web anymore. * Since version 2.6.6 we are only dealing with problems caused by increaded browser security restrictions. These are all valid points however let me ask this, what dose TW5 do for the large number of people who don't care about their TWs being on the web or editing them online? Many of the people I have seen attracted to TW are attracted to it because it can be used entirely offline and doesn't require any special hosting software to use it at its fullest (Cough Node.js) like other wikis, but still lets you heavily customize the interface and core unlike other options such as WikiPad or The Red Notebook If you use TWc with portable Firefox you can take it with you anywhere and use it on nearly any windows system without having to do anything else just as if it was any other portable no nonsense program. "* The basic concept of TW is, that it is a self contained wiki." To me TW5 is not self contained as most of it's best features require Node.js and well you can easily carry around a static version and give it out it is not easy at all to give people a full copy of your original full featured when it's a node.js app, especially if they are none techy people. TW5 is at it's core a Node.js app that *can *be used as a self contained wiki, it is not at it's core a fully self contained system in the way that TWc is. (I will admit modern web browsers have made it less fully self contained and ultra portable but it can still largely be used in the same ways.) "* The smallest unit in this wiki are tiddlers" I feel weird nit picking this but it doesn't sound quite right... As it doesn't seem technically true for either TWc nor TW5 as you said yourself you can transclud blocks and slices of things though out the wiki which would make blocks and slices the smallest unit of the wiki. (Not that I'm saying they are not both tiddler driven but if we are going to diverge into technicalities...) "* The big strength of TW is transclusions" This is subjective, for most the people I know in person the big strength to TW is easily being able to customize the templates, and the ease and simplicity of the plugin system. (In what other wiki can you copy and past a plug-in into a page tag it system-config and have it work? Let alone even be able to modify core functionality.) TW5 is nightmarish to do extensive visual modifications to compared to the power and simplicity of the template systems in TWc especially when you start using the various plugins that allow for different view and edit mode templates to be used on things based on tag or field data. "I'm pretty sure TW5 can replace many TW2 installations out of the box. Just it doesn't need that many 3rd party plugins, because the core is able to handle much more requirements." I'm pretty sure DokuWiki can replace just as many TW2 *"installations"* as well, I however don't think we should marge the two programs by name and community because they may be able to be used to replace one another in some use cases. Like any complex/active program it is possible that TW5 will one day become a real replacement in every possible way for TWc but it is also just as likely that it will go down an entirely different path as development goes on and never be a replacement for TWc for many people. At the end of the post all I am saying, is to save a lot of confusion for no real reason it would make sense to give a new program based on a completely new code base and largely new features and syntax a new name, rather than giving it an old still very useful programs (that is not really being replaced) name. "Just because someone buys a new kitten doesn't mean they should rename the old pussy cat just so the kitten can have the more popular name." On Monday, September 2, 2013 2:12:48 PM UTC-7, PMario wrote: > > On Monday, September 2, 2013 8:20:14 PM UTC+2, Arc Acorn wrote: >> >> Though I do wonder given how different TW5 is from TWc if really it >> wouldn't be better to rename it. (It is after all still early on in >> it's development and many programs start out with code names and than move >> on to their real names when they leave the early stages and start coming >> into their own.) >> > > That's what I suggested, just the other way around. What we all know and > love, was released in 2004 and the first version, didn't have the look an > feel tiddlywiki.com has now. > > I think there is no problem in calling it TiddlyWiki-classic / TWc. It > won't hurt anybody, since the functionality is the same :) > > >> <snip> ... though at the same time I find myself wondering why something >> that is really not an upgrade nor replacement to it's predecessor is >> carrying on it's name. >> > > ... hard words, that imo are not true. > * The basic concept of TW is, that it is a self contained wiki. > * The smallest unit in this wiki are tiddlers. > * The big strength of TW is transclusions. > ... > > All those points and several more, are still true for TW5. Just TWc has > some major shortcommings. > > * Search engines can't handle its output. > * Design decisions (in code and CSS) made in 2004, just don't fit the > modern web anymore. > * Since version 2.6.6 we are only dealing with problems caused by > increaded browser security restrictions. ... > > TW5 fixes those problems (I just pointed out 3 of them to keep the answer > short ;). > > With tw5 you are able to create a static representation of your TW [1]. At > the moment it uses the same CSS as the TW5 app but it is possible to change > that. Search engines will be happy with this type of content. You can put > the static representation on a stick and you have a "read only" version ... > > TW5 is HTML5 ready. We will be able to use all the new stuff, that is > coming up in new browsers ... > > TW5 by design let's us handle single tiddlers as single files. I know a > ton of topics here in the group that complain about the limits TWc has. > > Just from the people I know in the real world who don't track this group >> but use TWc due to me giving them copies, when I first bring up TW5 I'm >> often meet with a lot of excitement because they think "TidilyWiki" the >> program they knew and love is getting a major update, and than as they >> learn more about and get a chance to use it they get rather depressed since >> for many of them the foreseeable TW5 won't be able to replace TWc for a >> long time, if ever. >> > > I'm pretty sure TW5 can replace many TW2 installations out of the box. > Just it doesn't need that many 3rd party plugins, because the core is able > to handle much more requirements. > > TW5 looks different, that's true. We are not used to the new design, but > the possibilities to tweak it will be much more userfriendly, than it was > with TWc. There will be no need to mess around with *Templates to adjust > theme settings. [2] > > What's missing in the alpha is more "user ready" documentation. But imo > everyone is free to give feedback, so shortcommings can be fixed. > > Without feedback -> no improvement ;) > > have fun! > > [1] http://five.tiddlywiki.com/static/HelloThere > [2] Open tab: More: Shadows: $ControlPanel and edit the text fields ... > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
