On Fri, Sep 09, 2005 at 04:52:06PM -0500, wayne wrote:
> In <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > At 10:46 AM -0500 2005-09-09, wayne wrote:
> >
So far this was I think the best point to respond to. Although I don't
realy think the last part was getting us anywhere. But more on that
later.
> >> Links that cross oceans tend to have high jitter and high latency.
> >> Ending up with an NTP server that is half way around the world is
> >> going to cause you to have something like a 100ms minimum delay.
> >> (65ms for the speed of light, but electric signals only travel at
> >> 2/3c, plus router delays, etc.)
> >
> > [...]
> > You cannot make assumptions about how traffic will flow
> > topographically within a given geographical region. And the worst
> > possible mistake you could make would be to build them into
> > pool.ntp.org.
I do agree, but... It happens to often that ISP's get routed over the US
while located in Holland.. and that is something that we should not
focus on up until the moment we can actually do something about it. And
I don't think that's going to be any time soon. So our best bet is that
the politics of netadmins are in our favour, especially those whom are
big enough to dictate what peering and what transits will be used.
> I think you are overstating the problem and I haven't heard a lot of
> complaints about the current {europe,asia,north-america}.pool.ntp.org.
I have a feeling that not a lot of people use those in the past, and will
stick to 012.
As soon as we are talking about sysadmins that need something better
they will either resort to the "traditional" way, or get something as
fancy as their own GPS unit.
> >> Even filling in with random servers from around the world will allow
> >> for automated config scripts to work today.
> >
> > And those automated scripts could just as easily use
> > 0.pool.ntp.org, 1.pool.ntp.org, etc..., without causing us any
> > additional work, without the likelihood of creating more network
> > topological problems than they can resolve, and without messing up
> > anything for the future.
>
> Even in the cases of bad routing in a given region, filling out
> country code, continental and timezone entries would be unlikely to
> make things *worse*. Filling out the zones, in the limiting case, is
> identical to using just the global pools.
>
> Even something like KR and JP being in the same "continent" or
> timezone pool and having KR -> US -> JP -> US -> KR is not as bad as
> KR -> US -> NL -> US -> KR, which is the kind of thing you will likely
> get with just using the global pools.
Then why should we bother using 0, 1 or 2 if we need to get a quick fix
within .. well, a 50ms? Instead of a focus towards the need of a exact
solution (and that goes both ways, time and issue we are talking about)
we could just fase it all out, and look at what we can do in providing
to the "upper"class of users, and the "generic"class that is happy with
anything withing the second. As long as we don't got the global coverage
we need to resort to explicit use of the allready famous use of tld
zoneing, there could be nothing standing in our way of looking towards a
solution for the long term.
As brad explained his possible long term DNS solution we could be
getting close to a self regulating system if we could increase the
amount of ntp servers that (ab)use the pool.
>
> >> Despite being about the same longitude, I'm pretty sure that the
> >> people in Peru use a different timezone than the people in Maine,
> >> mostly due to daylight savings time differnces.
I pulled out a nice map with lots of colours.. and I wouldn't dare on
reading it while in a car.. I would get carsick, even if it isn't moving.
The timezone suggestion is an non option as far as I think that
simplicity should be the first marker we should get our hands on.
Now, a lot of the people that did add an ntp server are on dsl lines,
and that's either because they are beginning sysadmins and learning,
want to join and share bandwith for.. well, I could go on and on. When
you add a server it becomes a very static event from that point. You
added your ip adres, the pool provides a heck of lot of info based uppon
the administion to the rond-robin, and that's it. The only way of giving
a bit of input is just via this list. I do belive that a lot of problems
could be solved in providing a way of getting sysadmins to work together
in getting a better list of peers. We just might need to step outside
the border of just providing the pool and leaving the ntpd support to the
newsgroups/mailinglists of the difrent ntpd's around, and leave this
list to focus on developing the pool itself.
And this is just because I have a feeling that the amount of people that
just setup and ntpd and leave the config just as is.. have either no
clue what they did, don't care, or just don't know how to change it for
the better. I think I could be part of that group if I look at the small
group of people that respond to eachother in such a firm (almost
hostile) manner nobody realy dares to take a swing at it.
I will never claim to be an expert on anything, or a specialist. I will
never claim that other are not. I will not adjust my attitude because of
the fact that others know a lot and feel they need to inform me on how I
cock-up. I like to know that whatever happens, I can make mistakes, make
a judgement that is offbase. As long as they are willing to explain to
me why I am.
So please.. burn this mail to pieces if needed, but explain why, and let
me ask questions.
[snip]
And we don't need hints on reading.. just an explaintion what the hell
we are talking about.
,Mark
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