Payam- Where, neurologically, do you identify the location of this apathy? :)
It is quite informative to me that your postings reflect not only lack respect for your students but for the very instantiations of institutional knowledge that you proport to wish to be considered a part of (yuck- what a sentence!). The people on this list seem to me to be trying very hard to model for you NOT making the fundamental attribution error and deciding that your disrespect for your students is an enduring quality. They seem to be trying quite hard to assume that your disrespect of students is due to the environment, lack of experience to temper your enthusiasm/frustration, and that underneath you are a caring and potentially excellent facutly member. You do not seem to be listening to the strong weight of evidence from those who have taught longer than you that they too often held such disdain for students and their "apathy". I strongly urge you, for your own sake and that of your students, that you stop for a few moments and reflect on the weight of evidence against the postion you are taking here. I cannot overemphasize the importance of your keeping in mind that the people on this list have wide reaching import to your academic success. Payam- PLEASE stop and reflect carefully on what you are saying to a group of people who may one day play a significant, but invisible to you, role in whether you get considered for jobs etc. Respectfully, Tim Shearon ********************************************** Timothy O. Shearon, Ph.D. Department of Psychology (Chairperson) Albertson College of Idaho Caldwell, Idaho ph- 208-459-5840 teaching interests: neuropsychology, history of psychology, developmental (topical), intro -----Original Message----- From: Payam Heidary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:12 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences Subject: Re: Attribution of student apathy I am not denying the fact that there may be some situational (external) deteriminants to this but I believe most of it has to do with internal attributions (apathy). Many more college students work and go to school these days and I was no different myself. I also worked and went to school as a student myself and also had to commute long distance. But this never stopped or prevented me from seeing my professor after class, or going to office hours when I needed help. So this is still not a valid excuse for not seeking extra help during office hours, tutoring center, etc. I think you are falling into the many excuses that students like to give for their lack of effort. If there is a will there is a way. Payam --- Retta Poe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't want to get into an argument, but, > again, I think it's good to > avoid those internal attributions. Maybe there are > other reasons why students > don't attend office hours or go for tutoring. For > example, many of my > students work a significant number of hours - and > they must, because they > otherwise would not be in school. Other students > commute long distances to > campus, and may not be able to make the drive on a > whim. Others may come from > a background that makes asking for help difficult. > Some may have gone for > help and found the "help" not helpful...and so > forth. > So I still believe that rather than assume > student apathy is the reason > for their behavior, it might be a good idea to > consider some other reasons > (situational determinants) for their behavior, and > it might be useful to ask > them why they don't use those resources or why they > haven't followed what were > supposed to be clear directions. > Incidentally, I teach first-year students as > well as upper-division and > graduate ones. I find that especially in the case > of first-year students, the > main problems are lack of information and lack of > skill, not lack of interest. > > Retta > > Payam Heidary wrote: > > > Retta, > > > > My experiences have not been similar to yours. You > say > > that you give very clear and specific instructions > and > > that you find students following them. This is NOT > the > > case with my students. You may have upper division > or > > graduate students who have learned their lessons > > through more experience but if you teach freshman > and > > sophomores like I do then I am certain you will > not > > have the same experiences. I also think that > apathy > > has a lot to do with it because if students did > not > > understand anything but cared enough to want to > > understand then you would expect them to seek more > > assistance such as coming to office hours, > attending > > the tutoring and writing center on campus, etc. > But > > clearly most students do not do this. Just go to > the > > tutoring and writing center on your campus and ask > > them how many students they actually assist per > day > > and how many come in for help and compare that to > the > > number of students needing help and you will see > what > > I mean. > > > > Payam > > > > --- Retta Poe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I think we should be very cautious in making > > > attributions of student > > > apathy when students don't do what we think they > > > should. One of the things I > > > have learned in nearly 30 years of teaching is > that > > > at least some of the time > > > (if not most of the time), when students don't > do > > > things the way I want them > > > to, it's because 1. they haven't understood what > I > > > want, 2. they haven't > > > understood that I _really do_ want something > done a > > > particular way (i.e., that > > > I really CARE), or 3. they lack the skills to do > > > what I want. > > > So I try to figure out a way to address each > of > > > these. To address the > > > first situation, I say what I want, I write it > out > > > clearly on a handout, and > > > sometimes I even give them a quiz over the > details > > > of the assignment. If they > > > have to take a quiz, they pay attention! > > > For the second, I spend some time telling > them > > > why I care about some > > > requirement, and I try to offer reasons that > sound > > > beneficial to them. For > > > example, I tell them that I want papers > > > double-spaced so that I can have space > > > to write comments and suggestions. I tell them > that > > > I want a cover page so > > > that their privacy is protected when I hand back > the > > > papers - others won't be > > > able to see their grade and my comments on the > paper > > > because the cover page > > > will "cover" the paper. > > > For the third, I consider whether my > students > > > can reasonably be expected > > > to already have the skills in question. If not, > I > > > don't lose any sleep > > > worrying about why not - I just try to figure > out > > > how to help them acquire > > > those skills. > > > As for motivation - I do specify some clear > > > contingencies for > > > reinforcement and punishment, and I stick to > them. > > > For example, I do not want > > > late papers, and I do not want to reinforce > > > procrastination. So papers are > > > due at class time on the dates specified. > Papers > > > turned in up to 24 hours > > > late receive half-credit, and after 24 hours, > papers > > > aren't accepted (of > > > course, I do make exceptions for extraordinary > > > circumstances beyond the > > > student's control). Guess what: last Friday, > when I > > > had papers due in one > > > class, I received an on-time paper from every > single > > > student. > > > What's more, I also do not receive criticism > for > > > my policy on my student > > > evaluations. I think it's probably because 1. I > > > make the policy very clear, > > > and 2. I explain that I don't think it's fair to > the > > > conscientious students to > > > give the less-conscientious students extra time > to > > > do their papers, so I am > > > making sure that I don't reward students for > being > > > less conscientious. > > > I guess my point is that I think apathy > probably > > > accounts for only a very > > > small percentage of the problems various > Tipsters > > > have mentioned. Also, I > > > would like to suggest that it may be useful to > > > collect some data on this > > > point. When students don't do what you want, > why > > > not conduct a brief, > > > anonymous survey to ask them why they didn't do > what > > > you wanted? That way, > > > you can know what you need to do differently. I > > > have tried this at times, and > > > I have found it to be very helpful. > > > > > > Retta > > > > > > -- > > > Retta E. Poe, Ph.D. > > > Professor of Psychology > > > Western Kentucky University > > > 1 Big Red Way > > > Bowling Green, Ky. 42101 > > > > > > (270) 745-4409 FAX: (270) 745-6934 > > > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://edtech.cebs.wku.edu/~rpoe/ > > > > > > "Live long, and prosper!" > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Find a job, post your resume. > > http://careers.yahoo.com > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > Retta E. Poe, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology > Western Kentucky University > 1 Big Red Way > Bowling Green, Ky. 42101 > > (270) 745-4409 FAX: (270) 745-6934 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://edtech.cebs.wku.edu/~rpoe/ > > "Live long, and prosper!" > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
