David Miller wrote: > The fact that you are asking for a designation of > "NT times" or "OT times" is revealing that something > is not consistent with how you apply the Torah laws > to today. > > Do you accept the idea of two covenants? > Do you recognize that the Ten Commandments > are part of the Old Covenant for OT times > and not part of the New Covenant for NT times?
Izzy wrote: > David, I no longer practice regs in the OT that > have been fulfilled by the atoning Blood of Christ. The Sabbath is established and fulfilled by the work of Christ. That's the point of Hebrews. Izzy wrote: > Yes, I accept 2 covenants. No I don't recognize > that the 10 commandments are null and void now, > in NT times. I never said they were null and void. Jesus did not come to destroy the law. Jesus established another covenant, one unlike the first one. Which covenant do we enter into in order to be righteous? Izzy wrote: > Why on earth do we still post them on walls in > courthouses (wherever the ACLU hasn't prevented > it)? I do not believe that Jesus nullified the > 10 commandments. Why do you? I don't believe he nullified them. I believe that he superseded them with a much greater covenant, one not according to the letter, but according to the Spirit, one whereby man is Lord of the Sabbath. Izzy wrote: > I assert that if you disobey the 10 commandments > (in their real intent; not just the letter of the > law like the Pharisees were fond of doing) you are > not walking in love. Otherwise, you can try to justify > something like adultery by claiming, "But we were in > LOVE, so that makes it okay! Love rules over the > commandments on that issue!" My comments about picking up some sticks for your fireplace on Saturday was to try and help you think about the letter of the law versus the true intent of the law. Somehow I think my questions about this were avoided. Can we talk about picking up sticks on Saturday to make a fire in your home? Do you agree or disagree with the idea that this deserves the death penalty according to Torah? Izzy wrote: > I can't go through the whole OT and catalog every single > instance, which could probably be argued about anyway. > If you say so I'm not going to argue about it. However > I do believe that some of the OT laws were fulfilled in > the atoning Blood. Some of the OT laws were replaced by > today's government, as we no longer live in a theocracy. > The only laws that I think are still in effect are the > moral laws. They never pass away as far as I can tell. Does making a fire in your fireplace on Saturday violate the moral law? Please define what you mean by "moral law." You may think I am being nit picky, but I'm trying to find consistency in this topic. It seems like you just pick and choose what part of the law you think should be followed and which part can be ignored. It seems like you have your own definition of what Sabbath observance is, and you point to the Torah about the need to observe the Sabbath, but you don't really define Sabbath observance the way that the Torah does. I believe that Sabbath needs to be observed, but I see the Sabbath as the rest of God, the Kingdom of God, righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. It is the promised land, as per the author of Hebrews so eloquently explains. Izzy wrote: > It is tiresome to keep explaining myself over > and over again, but for you I'd go to the ends > of the earth. The law is subservient to love, > and part of loving is providing for basic human > needs such as food and warmth and health. > Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Jesus ate grains > of wheat from the fields on the Sabbath. Jesus > understood the intent of the law. He had the > law in His heart, so didn't have to split hairs > about it. Ok, fair enough about Jesus, but the Torah is pretty clear about not building fires on the Sabbath. What I'm trying to show you is that Sabbath observance and Pesach (Passover) are on the same level. You seem to understand how Christ fulfills Pesach, but you don't seem to understand how he fulfills Sabbath. I'm trying to understand why that is, and at the same time help you to see the inconsistency you have with regard to this. I think the Spirit is leading you into some things here, but your understanding of it might cause some confusion because you don't rightly divide the Word of God concerning what the Sabbath is and how we truly observe it in our covenant with Jesus Christ. We should not mix Sabbath observance of the New Covenant with Sabbath observance of the Old Covenant. At the same time, there is something else going on here as well. God is leading many believers to an acceptance of Judaic practices. He is putting a love in many Christians for Judaism, for their ways and their laws, because it is part of God's plan to revive Israel and save them in these last days. Izzy wrote: > I'm not sure what "way the Torah talks about it". > Probably not. I just rest on the Sabbath. But you quote the Torah as your authority for keeping Sabbath. If Torah is understood as drawing a shadow of the true Sabbath, then how you observe Sabbath might make a lot of sense. On the other hand, if you say that the ten commandments must be followed and therefore sabbath must be observed, then it would seem to me that we should follow sabbath based upon how Torah says we should follow it. The problem is that this is going into another covenant for observing it, rather than the covenant of Jesus Christ. I keep thinking about Romans 10:1-13 again. Did you read this passage yet? (I know you have read it before, but in this context, does anything there kind of speak to you that maybe didn't speak to you when you had read it before?) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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