From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, 14 March, 2003 10:46
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Lord of the Sabbath
> The Sabbath is established and fulfilled by the work of Christ. That's
> the point of Hebrews.
The book of Hebrews tells us, "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God." Why can't we just believe that the Sabbath still exists for us? Perhaps you need to read Chapter 4 in context so you can properly put the Sabbath into perspective.
> law. Jesus established another covenant, one unlike the first one.
> Which covenant do we enter into in order to be righteous?
Did he really come to give a NEW covenant? Hebrews (again) quotes Jeremiah chapter 31 when the author refers to this new covenant. However, what does Jeremiah 31 tell us? Let me quote:"Behold, days are coming," declares YHVH, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares YHVH. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My TORAH within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know YHVH,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-33)
> much greater covenant, one not according to the letter, but according to the
> Spirit, one whereby man is Lord of the Sabbath.
Can you tell me where in Scripture man is called the Lord of the Sabbath? It seems to me the end of Mark tells us that Messiah is the Lord of the Shabbat.
> My comments about picking up some sticks for your fireplace on Saturday
was
> to try and help you think about the letter of the law versus the true intent
> of the law. Somehow I think my questions about this were avoided. Can we
> talk about picking up sticks on Saturday to make a fire in your home? Do
> you agree or disagree with the idea that this deserves the death penalty
> according to Torah?
I am slightly confused because it's been my belief that the "true intent" of the Law was always the Letter of the Law, especially when Messiah says:"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." (Mattityahu 23:23)
"But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." (Luke 11:42)
> Does making a fire in your fireplace on Saturday violate
the moral law?
> Please define what you mean by "moral law."
Here's the current, worldly definition of "moral law:" A law that I want to apply to myself because, to me, it's seems morally right, but you don't have to follow it because your morals might be different than mine. A Law from YHVH is moral PERIOD and it applies to all mankind equally. Ignore one of His Laws and you must deal directly with Him.
> Izzy wrote:
> > It is tiresome to keep
explaining myself over
> > and over again, but for you I'd go to the
ends
> > of the earth. The law is subservient to love,
> > and
part of loving is providing for basic human
> > needs such as food and
warmth and health.
> > Jesus healed on the Sabbath. Jesus ate
grains
> > of wheat from the fields on the Sabbath. Jesus
> >
understood the intent of the law. He had the
> > law in His heart, so
didn't have to split hairs
> > about it.
>
> Ok, fair
enough about Jesus, but the Torah is pretty clear about not
> building
fires on the Sabbath. What I'm trying to show you is
that
Sabbath
> observance and Pesach (Passover) are on the same
level. You seem to
> understand how Christ fulfills Pesach, but you
don't seem to understand
how
> he fulfills Sabbath. I'm trying to
understand why that is, and at the
same
> time help you to see the
inconsistency you have with regard to this. I
> think the Spirit is
leading you into some things here, but your
> understanding of it might
cause some confusion because you don't rightly
> divide the Word of God
concerning what the Sabbath is and how we truly
> observe it in our
covenant with Jesus Christ. We should not mix Sabbath
> observance
of the New Covenant with Sabbath observance of the Old
Covenant.
Eeeeeeek! Did YHVH not say that He is the same Yesterday, today and forever? Does not Hebrews say the same thing of Messiah? Are you suggesting that YHVH changed his mind? Scripture says he never changes!
> At the same time, there is something else going on here
as well. God is
> leading many believers to an acceptance of Judaic
practices. He is putting
> a love in many Christians for Judaism,
for their ways and their laws,
> because it is part of God's plan to
revive Israel and save them in these
> last days.
I believe what we're seeing is the gathering of the nations to Israel and the Torah of YHVH. To give the Torah to the Israelis is a horrid mistake. The Laws of Torah belong to YHVH. The feasts of Lev 23 are said to be "My [YHVH's] feasts." The gentiles are grafted (adopted) into Israel and the gentiles looses their identity as Gentiles (Read Romans 11)... i.e., there are NO GENTILES in the Kingdom. The former Gentile becomes like a native born. WHEN you begin to understand that fact, then when YHVH tells the Sons of Israel to follow a ruling in the "Old" testament, the ruling become YOURS as well. That is one of the greatest blessings you can receive in this life.
> But you quote the Torah as your authority for keeping
Sabbath. If Torah is
> understood as drawing a shadow of the true Sabbath,
then how you observe
> Sabbath might make a lot of sense. On the
other hand, if you say that the
> ten commandments must be followed and
therefore sabbath must be observed,
> then it would seem to me that we
should follow sabbath based upon how
Torah
> says we should follow
it. The problem is that this is going into another
> covenant for
observing it, rather than the covenant of Jesus Christ.
If I could, please look back at the covenants YHVH made with mankind. The covenant with Adam stated, "Be fruitful and multiply" and "be fruitful and subdue the earth." This covenant is still active. Noach's covenant is still active. Phinchas's covenant is still active. King David's covenant is still active. The covenant with Messiah is still active. Why is it that everyone wants to KILL Moshe's covenant? It doesn't make sense.
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians
4:6)
P.S. I LOVE your verse!
-- slade
