----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk False Teachers-Ad. Hom attack David.
> Blaine,
>
> I fail to to see how these versee say there are three heavens. Since it
> speaks about different glories for different things, I suspect it is saying
> that in the resurrection we humans will have our own glory, different from
> that of the other objects mentioned, and that even the glory between those
> resurrected may vary, but I don't see that this indicates that we go to
> different "heavens" or "kingdoms".
>
> Perry
From: "Blaine Borrowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] TruthTalk False Teachers-Ad. Hom attack David. Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:25:05 -0700
Blaine writes: You are right, it says nothing of kingdoms or heavens --but as you say it does indicate that bodies are of differing glories in the resurrection. So, we are agreed on that as far as it goes, right?
Here is the way I read this passage, trying to put things in context rather than seeing anything in isolation:
The glory of the sun is one--In other words, the sun's glory, which does not vary much, symbolizes the bodies of those who inherit this glory. These are therefore equal in glory. I would equate this glory with the term "celestial glory."
Do you have any Biblical cross references that support this symbolism, or are you just adding this on your own?
The glory of the moon is one, so the bodies of those who inherit this glory will be equal. I suppose this is called the "terrestrial glory."
Since the glory of the stars does vary, those who inherit this glory will have bodies that vary in glory, as is the case here on earth. A name for this glory is not given.
It does seem to me that although kingdoms/heavens are not explicitly mentioned here, they are implied.
I see no such implication here. If one presupposes that there are three heavens, then one might argue that the model fits the verses, but the verses alone do not bring that out.
I find it difficult to believe persons of varying degrees of glory, and therefore varying powers, would all reside mixed together. I would not, for example, believe that men who were hardened criminals on earth would have much desire to associate with higher types, and vice versa. I think there would be not only differing glories, but differing degrees of understanding, and enlightenment, and therefore different kingdoms. As the saying goes, "Birds of a feather flock together."
I hope that saying is not part of your theology!
I believe that hardened criminals would not end up in heaven, unless they became saved, in which case I would have no problem being with them in heaven. I believe we are going to be changed much more than LDS believe. You guys seem to think we get a new body and a new address, and everything else is status quo. But it not only our body that is changed in an instant.
There would be no point in separating the sheep from the goats, or the tares from the wheat, in the final judgement, if they were all going to end up in the same place anyway.
We do not all end up in the same place. There is heaven and hell. Just like tares and wheat, bulls and goats. It does not say bulls and goats and rabbits and butterflies. It says bulls and goats. Two divisions. Can the scripture be any clearer on this?
I for one would not think it much reward if I still had to put up with thieves, liars, etc all living in my heavenly neighborhood. Even here on earth, we like to live in a place where those around us think and feel similarly.
Well, thieves and liars, etc, will not end up in heaven unless they repented and believed. That is made quite clear in scripture. And I would have no problem being around someone that has repented and believes.
Notice also, Blaine, that anytime the Kingdom of God, or the Kingdom of Heaven is mentioned in the Bible, the definite article "the" is used. Not "a", and not "they". It is always "THE Kingdom (singular) of Heaven" and "THE kingomd (singular) of God". There is a reason for this.
So, in summary, the Bible really does not support three kingdoms of heaven at all. There is heaven and there is hell. There are a few places, if the rest of the Bible is ignored and one pre-supposes three heavens, that might appear to be compatible with the LDS idea of three heavens, but on close study one can clearly see that this is not the case.
Perry
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